March for Free Expression

The next phase

Monday, April 03, 2006

The Liberal

It's a great shame that we ran out of time on Saturday 25th March. There was one other unscheduled speaker waiting in the wings. Ben Ramm, the Editor of The Liberal was ready with a short speech about his experience as an editor who had tried to publish one of the Danish Cartoons. As his website puts it:
The magazine was informed on the evening of Wednesday 8th February by senior offices at Scotland Yard that the editor and his staff could not be guaranteed police protection in the event of publication.
Ben's take on this is slightly different to those of the more determinedly secularist of our speakers and commentators. He feels that:
the affirmative argument about the sacred nature of humanity - that "there is nothing unholy or inadequate about the human form. In other words, it is wrong to suggest that to depict an individual is de facto to profane him or her" -
has yet to be properly aired in the pubic sphere
You can download a pdf (69k) of his argument here.

86 Comments:

Blogger X said...

I think you'll find his name is Ben Ramm ;-)

10:04 am  
Blogger Voltaire said...

Thanks, not with it today.

10:10 am  
Blogger Anonymous said...

Nowhere near enough anti-BNP cartoons on the web... I'm very upset having actually gone and read the stuff they put on their website.

That they have an actual bona fide political party in the UK defies belief. They increase people's fear and play on it. They are truly sick and twisted people...

Ben - fair enough - but think about how the BNP will use it, also think about whether you want to be seen as one of their supporters?

We are not under the same threat with political Islam in the UK as we are through the BNP. (Who said there wasn't Nazi Party? The BNP is a very NASTY Party).

There is no bona fide political party in the UK that is Islamic and advocates the deportation of, say, Non Muslims out of the country!

No wonder they were upset when the cartoons decision was reversed.

Voltaire - you complain about the slogan "All White on the Night" Not nice at all, but it is IS because of people like the BNP usurping the event. You did your best at the last minute, but til then, - well you only need to read the comments which were to say the least distressed on your decision not to WELCOME the cartoons.

As far as I recall you never BANNED them, so the stuff about censorship is nonsense, only relevant if they had been banned which they were not.

As proven by support for Reza on the day!

But let's remember that Reza would be "one of the first to go" if it's up to the BNP.

11:31 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> We are not under the same threat
> with political Islam in the UK as
> we are through the BNP.

The BNP is a toothless dog and subject to continuous ridicule.

The BNP aren't asking for items to be taken off debating table, and they aren't calling for the censorship of our national and international press.

They are no threat to anyone, unless censorship and a failure to address peoples concerns are not addressed.

Lets quickly review your comments from last week.

> This is hilarious: "If you had
> attended the rally last Saturday,
> you would have been in a crowd of
> relaxed, friendly people."

They were friendly and relaxed, yet you think that it was a "joke". That is highly prejudice and a complete refusal to look at the facts.

> I heard the reverse - I heard
> that about the Birmingham rally

I've seen the photos, not angry, but not diverse either, also the photographs put the women to protest in a separate group.

Hardly an embracement of British Liberal integrated culture and tolerance.

> And I heard THAT about the Danish
> - sorry MFE rally where a bunch
> of muslim youths were thrown out!

Indeed, but no BNP nationalists turned up at the MAC demo in white sheets looking to cause trouble did they?

To tell me to focus on the dangers of the BNP is a complete misunderstanding of what this movement is about. It would strife to give both groups air time and let people decide who they support by watching them debate with other groups.

The BNP stands for a lot of things that people find repugnant. This movement is not about trying to gag the BNP or Islamic politics.

Cheers,

TFI

12:26 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> But let's remember that Reza
> would be "one of the first to go"
> if it's up to the BNP.

It wasn't the BNP movement that got Reza arrested was it?

12:28 pm  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

With Tariq Ramadan thretening Europe, this is no surprise: "[In] the long run if you don’t know how to deal with something like that it could have more damaging consequences than the 11 September [2001 attacks],"

More specifically, he calls for "common civic sense."

Does this ring a bell?

Here's the link
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/3/656dbece-9833-4a4c-a5c9-d38aecb2ad54.html

12:54 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

BTW anonymous,

Hows your progressive attempt at helping feminists achieve the much wanted goal for allowing them to wander around the UK bare chested?

Cheers,

TFI

1:02 pm  
Blogger infidelious said...

The BNP are the only people willing to talk about the problems we face regarding Islamism and its aggressive nature. So, if they do gain support it will be because the political mainstream has ignored peoples concerns (they have been ignoring Islamists for the past couple of decades).

One of my concerns:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010872.php

Enough is enough indeed.

1:16 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

I'm bored of this talk of Islamaphobia on this board. The MAC board is better for that, or the toonaphobia board.

Not here.

1:19 pm  
Blogger Anonymous said...

"The BNP aren't asking for items to be taken off debating table,"

Yes they're asking for any non-whites to be taken off the debating table of the whole of the UK.

"and they aren't calling for the censorship of our national press."

No - just of our Nation.

"I've seen the photos, not angry, but not diverse either, also the photographs put the women to protest in a separate group.

Hardly an embracement of British Liberal integrated culture and tolerance."

Same in both rallies - if you look at the pics there were loads of girls posing together like girl bands... :-)

"Indeed, but no BNP nationalists turned up at the MAC demo in white sheets looking to cause trouble did they?"

Quite different. The Muslims that showed up had no agenda to drive whites out of the UK...

> But let's remember that Reza
> would be "one of the first to go"
> if it's up to the BNP.

Point stands. If the BNP had their way - to quote their own literature "not to take a single one from places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Africa" - I presume that would also include Iran, BNP Member?

2:38 pm  
Blogger Anonymous said...

thefriendlyinfidel

fellow campaigners have been tackling the issue of breastfeeding in public as a first step.

2:40 pm  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

I thought this analysis might be of interest:
http://rantingkraut.wordpress.com/2006/04/03/is-freedom-of-expression-an-absolute-right/

2:43 pm  
Blogger Polish Solidarity with Denmark said...

Anonymous,
Do you have a grudge against girls bands? Have "Spice Girls" turned down your application?

3:09 pm  
Blogger dizzyfatplonka said...

God did not create beauty, for it to be hidden away either. Infact Muhammed is not a spokesman for God, so should not even be allowed to effect our freedoms in any way whatsoever, me myself have allways voted labour, now my feelings of guilt at the mess and danger that has put you all in, has caused me to see the bnp as our only hope. e very other government is going to allow this nonsence to continue, until it is beyond repair. Dont be mistaken by the way you all foolishly try to console yourselves, we are bobbing along up shit creak and the bnp are the only honest paddle.

3:16 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

But if you could be really honest with yourself for a moment you'd know that the chances of a BNP government are precisely...

...zero.

And that's really being honest.

Look at the voting figures for every constituency in the UK if you're really interested.

Look at the BNP share of the vote. Work out what would be required to happen for things to change.

Dyed-in-the-wool Labour and Tory voters would have to change the habits of a lifetime. Trade unionists and public sector workers, businessmen and retired colonels would all have to rush into the welcoming arms of the BNP.

They may increase their vote in some areas but in most places it just aint ever gonna happen.

7:43 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

TheFriendlyInfidel said...
> Anyway this is the last time i
> respond to one of these posts,
> I've refuted so much stuff now
> and clearly shown that much of
> what has been quoted has been
> wilfully mistranslated or ripped
> out of it's context.

Hi Ismaeel,

However tiring that you find the time to keep it up.

We are told that Islam is a religion of peace, then the extremists use passages in the Qu'ran to justify attacks on our society.

If you can demonstrate that their interpretation to be poppy cock, you will help reduce the fear that is clouding your religion. Nobody is asking you or anyone else to have anything other than a romanticized view of Mohammed life and actions.

Banning criticism of Mohammed is not helpful, responding to the criticism even when it is insulting is very helpful; it reduces fear, uncertainly and doubt.

You cannot promote debate by taking issues off the table.

Cheers,

Ok fine TFI, why don't you ask me about the various aspects and tactics of al qaeeda et al that actually threaten this society e.g. targetting civilians, targetting commerical centres etc and i'll give you some very clear and thorough answers.
As for Polish solidarity's question about harsh punishments, please ask yourself if the nicey nicey punishments of western liberal democracy are solving our crime problems or making them worse. I'll have to do the research but last time i checked, prisons seem to be expanding not getting smaller. I have also read anacedotal evidence that prisons actually serve as training grounds and actually end up making minor criminals into big timers.
I also want to address this misnomer of stoning women. The punishment for adultery in Islam (having sex with someone other than your spouse while married and it being witnessed by 4 adult male Muslims) is stoning to death for men and women. As for fornication (having sex outside marriage) the punishment is 100 lashes. The reason for these harsh punishments: adultery and fornication are not victimless crimes how many people's lives are runined and families destroyed by these acts on a regular basis? You may think it is harsh, but think on this all these punishments were actually rarely applied, because they were such strong deterrants and because the weight of evidence needed was so high.
As for the question of apostacy, i have to say it is something i know little about and have to do some research on.

8:09 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

Ismaeel,

Thanks for that and for your explanation of the justification of such wicked and barbaric punishment.

What worries me is that if you and other religious muslims really believe this, there can be absolutely no middle ground between us where we could meet.

We seem all set for futher polarisation which is an unhappy prospect.

8:28 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

I don't see why Sir Percy, no-one is suggesting enforcing those punishments here.

9:47 pm  
Blogger wnw said...

How is adultery reasonably witnessed by 4 adult muslim males... that seems rather bizarre and perverse to say the very least. It is the sexual act that has to be witnessed or is that 4 males have suspicions about a couple being engaged in adultery.

I'm also terribly concerned by the idea that within Islam rape victims have to have their abuse witnessed by adult males or else they are stoned too - surely this cannot be considered a reasonable way to deal with the victims of sexual crime. Death as the penalty for being raped?

9:49 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

wnw said...
How is adultery reasonably witnessed by 4 adult muslim males... that seems rather bizarre and perverse to say the very least. It is the sexual act that has to be witnessed or is that 4 males have suspicions about a couple being engaged in adultery.

The act itself has to be witnessed in fact the witnesses have to actually see the man enter the woman. The law is really to affect such brazen adulterers who could allow such witnessing to happen. In practice no case with four witnesses was ever prosecuted under the caliphate. Those who were stoned for adultery were few and were all based on their own voluntary confessions.

I'm also terribly concerned by the idea that within Islam rape victims have to have their abuse witnessed by adult males or else they are stoned too - surely this cannot be considered a reasonable way to deal with the victims of sexual crime. Death as the penalty for being raped?

This is unfounded, adultery and fornication is one crime. Rape is another. I discussed this with my Shaykh recently. He said rape cases are dealt with in a similar manner as in the west: forensic and circumstantial evidence can be adduced to prove guilt. The victim cannot be stoned or lashed for being raped as that would be utterly unjust. However like rape cases in the west, it is very hard to prove. The punishment for a rapist is the same as for fornication and adultery, lashes for the unmarried and death by stoning for the married.

10:02 pm  
Blogger 5050noline said...

Voltaire,

Keep my donation. It could have been a great event.

The BNP have just as much right to be heard, and are just as 'respectable', as the MAC.

Until your contributors can hoist that in, count me out in future.

I will look elsewhere for a cause that promotes true free speech and the right to be disrespectful.

Farewell. 5050 Out.

10:24 pm  
Blogger wnw said...

From what I've read it seems that in Islam the onus is on the victim to prove her innocence, rather than for the rapist to prove his - ie the victim is considered guilty until proven innocent.

There are several very unsettling and recent noteworthy cases which would seem to prove that point.

6:09 am  
Blogger St George said...

Sir Percy:

We seem all set for futher polarisation which is an unhappy prospect.

There is no getting away from it, we are witnessing the 'Clash of Civilisations'.

You cannot live in both the 21st and 7th centuries at the same time in the same country.

8:03 am  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

@cruisader
Some have arrived in the 21st century

http://agora.blogsome.com/2006/04/03/demos-interview-with-naser-khader/

9:17 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Hi Ismaeel,

You wrote:

Ok fine TFI, why don't you ask me about the various aspects and tactics of al qaeeda et al that actually threaten this society e.g. targetting civilians, targetting commerical centres etc and i'll give you some very clear and thorough answers.

Ismaeel, I think that we can agree that I find aspects to what you say appalling and to be on par with fascism. In this country you are allowed to believe such things, just like the BNP does. I find both you and the BNP abhorrent. Your beliefs breed a justified form Islamaphobia and the family of people like Anonymous suffer for it.

However, stepping aside from you I would like to ask you specific questions about how we can defend ourselves from "al qaeeda et al", but if I don't do some work today I'll get fired!

I promise to turn to this later.

Cheers,

TFI

10:34 am  
Blogger CarnackiUK said...

Ismaeel said:
"no-one is suggesting enforcing those punishments here. "

No, no one except various loudmouthed imams and the nearly 40% of UK 'moderate' muslims keen to have Sharia law enforced here!

Ismaeel takes care to give the impression that the harsh punishments for adulterers and others are hardly ever carried out. Having lived with my parents in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia when young I am perfectly aware that weekly public executions and mutilations were (and no doubt still are)the main form of entertainment in SA, cinemas, theatres, concerts etc being banned as 'immoral'.

I hope Ramza or some other Iranian secularists will intervene with some real facts and figures about executions of women adulterers and rape victims to counter Ismaeel's taqiyah. Meanwhile, I suggest people take a look at the many pictures on the internet of women, gays and even children being hanged, stoned and otherwise tortured under Sharia before buying the rosy picture that Ismaeel is peddling to the credulous infidels.

11:58 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Hi CarnackiUK,

You ought understand that Ismeaal perceives the acts in Saudi as unjust, as they only implement the punishments, not the complete social and political else aspects. At that point these crimes against humanity somehow stop being “unjust” and became “just”.

He believes that there is no true example of an Islamic state in this world. He rejects the attempts by Islamists in Afghanistan to create one because it was "too heavy on the punishments".

Can a 'true' Islamic state exist in this world alongside Western democracies? I think not as Infidel laws will have to infect the 'pure' Islamic ones for us to do trade and business.

The point he needs understand that without rejecting all the toys of the 21st Century and attempting to live in complete isolation is it not possible to return to what is basically a feudal society.

Some ideas, aren’t worthy of respect and, in my opinion, Ismaeel is packed full of them.

But true to the word of his organization he is engaging in debate and answering questions, for which he is to be commended.

Cheers,

TFI

12:15 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

@Luke

http://agora.blogsome.com/2006/04/03/demos-interview-with-naser-khader/

Great link, great man, he has my respect.

Cheers,

TFI

12:35 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

There is a great desire for change in this country.

The March for Free Expression itself has been born out of a sense of frustration that our freedoms are coming under threat.

In reply to several BNP posters on this blog I would say that the BNP is a step too far for most people.

British people are not extreme and are generally intolerant of intolerance.

So what do people do? With our three main parties looking increasingly similar we are left with the wonderful choice of UKIP, The English Democrats (assuming that most people reading this are English - apologies if you're not) or The New Party.

Although I just heard the news that another new party will soon enter the fray.

The Popular Alliance Party has just been registered with the Electoral Commission.

Details here: http://talk-veritas.blogspot.com/

12:58 pm  
Blogger British National Party member said...

Sir Percy, I seem to remember you as a moderator on the veritas forum, and suspect that you feel you have a vested interest in deflecting interest from the BNP.

From your blog;

"Anyway, I've heard that some of my old friends have been busy 'behind the scenes' working to create an entirely new political party."


Hey, at least no one can say they didn't know i was a member!

As the BNP grows, it mellows with the influence of the new members. The trouble is, if you start off from a position of compromise against islam which brooks no compromise, you will end up the loser (Dhimmi) almost by default.

This is why the BNP finds itself with any number of aces up its sleeve, while the small parties you mention have already spent theirs.

Best,
Gareth.

1:50 pm  
Blogger Babyboots said...

TFI

You're just 'running with the fox' and 'hunting with the hounds'

Stop trying to please EVERYBODY...

2:21 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

Gareth - how could I forget!!!

Just for the record, I'm not currently a member of any political party and I don't intend to join one in the near future. Life's too busy at the moment.

I only heard about the Popular Alliance this morning and I have no axe to grind on that score.

So really, in spite of what you might feel, I don't actually have any 'vested interests'.

I suppose it's just a matter of personal taste.

2:35 pm  
Blogger British National Party member said...

Hey! i wasn't sure if you'd remember me :)

2:42 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

TheFriendlyInfidel said...
Hi CarnackiUK,

You ought understand that Ismeaal perceives the acts in Saudi as unjust, as they only implement the punishments, not the complete social and political else aspects. At that point these crimes against humanity somehow stop being “unjust” and became “just”.

* True.

He believes that there is no true example of an Islamic state in this world. He rejects the attempts by Islamists in Afghanistan to create one because it was "too heavy on the punishments".

*Not just too heavy, but in isolation of many other elements of a true shariah system

Can a 'true' Islamic state exist in this world alongside Western democracies?

*Yes if the western bankers and corporations accept they don't have the right to enslave and racketeer half the world.

I think not as Infidel laws will have to infect the 'pure' Islamic ones for us to do trade and business.

*We all managed fine up until 1924

The point he needs understand that without rejecting all the toys of the 21st Century and attempting to live in complete isolation is it not possible to return to what is basically a feudal society.

*Ottomon society was just as advanced as european society in 1924 and still managed to be an Islamic state. We've already had this discussion TFI, please don't pretend we haven't. So no it's not a choice between a feudal and a modern system. It's the difference between a materialist based society and a God based society.

Some ideas, aren’t worthy of respect and, in my opinion, Ismaeel is packed full of them.

* Fair enough, it's your opinion.

But true to the word of his organization he is engaging in debate and answering questions, for which he is to be commended.

Cheers,

TFI

2:47 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

CarnackiUK said...

Ismaeel takes care to give the impression that the harsh punishments for adulterers and others are hardly ever carried out. Having lived with my parents in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia when young I am perfectly aware that weekly public executions and mutilations were (and no doubt still are)the main form of entertainment in SA, cinemas, theatres, concerts etc being banned as 'immoral'.

*Ok let's be totally clear about this, KSA for all it's propaganda is not a shariah state. It is a mixture of arab nationalism, bedouin politics and wahabbi cult extremism. All very far from traditional Islam. It is worth noting here that the leader of the Wahabbis rebelled against the Ottomon Caliph and when finally caught was executed as a treachrous heretic.

I hope Ramza or some other Iranian secularists will intervene with some real facts and figures about executions of women adulterers and rape victims to counter Ismaeel's taqiyah. Meanwhile, I suggest people take a look at the many pictures on the internet of women, gays and even children being hanged, stoned and otherwise tortured under Sharia before buying the rosy picture that Ismaeel is peddling to the credulous infidels.

*Again i don't recognise any of the so-called shariah states and punishments given out in their name as reflecting the shariah and it is a far cry from it's implementation under the Caliphate. Also please learn the meaning of the word taqiyyah and it's relevance in law to Sunni Muslims. I am a Sunni Muslim and we are only allowed to use taqiyyah, which means concealing our faith i.e. me saying i am not a Muslim, when in fear of being killed for it.

2:52 pm  
Blogger British National Party member said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:24 pm  
Blogger British National Party member said...

Ishmael claims above that islam is just as capable of spawning and continuing an advanced civilisation as more western religions.

To once and for all thoroughly refute that oft repeated claim, i give you this list of muslim recipients of the nobel prize on the one side, and jewish recipients on the other. Its worth repeating that this is a list of muslims on the one side and jews on the other... and there are at least 100 times more muslims than jews. (probably more like 150)

http://www.masada2000.org/nobel.html

Churchill himself said that there is no other more retrograde force in the world than islam. Yup.

3:27 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

Yes because the Nobel peace prize is such a good means of determining civilisation.

3:29 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

Just out of curiosity, do you have a ready definition of 'civilisation' for us Ismaeel?

I personally think that there is quite a lot to this.

There is no doubt that the muslim world was once quite advanced.

For example, many European scholars in the Middle Ages relied upon Arabic translations of learned classical Greek and Roman texts because the originals had been lost. This proves that there was a time when the muslim world was more tolerant to foreign ideas and was just as keen for knowledge as the West became.

Something went wrong and it's clear that muslim scholars rarely reach the top of their chosen specialisation these days.

Why is that I wonder?

Could it be anything to do with the ability to think freely?

Is too much emphasis placed on religious education at the expense of knowledge-based education?

When you look at the world these days it's China, India and some of the other smaller far-eastern countries like South Korea that are now making the running.

The muslim world appears to be moving backwards rather than forwards in comparison.

3:53 pm  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

BNP,
your list only proves that the world is dominated by the jews- er, no: It proves that the prizes are sold - er, no It proves that the jury doesn't understand Islam.

4:13 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Babyboots,

Wrote:

TFI

You're just 'running with the fox' and 'hunting with the hounds'

Stop trying to please EVERYBODY...


I'm an independent thinker, I don’t follow what others think, I make up my own mind, I can be insulting, I can be rude, I can be very aggressive.

If you want to engage Ismaeel or anyone in a debate you need to listen to what he and others have to say and react to those comments in kind, being able to paraphrase your opponent is a sign that you understand their viewpoint.

I also think that think that this forum is not the place to discuss this subject, there are better sites for "my religion is better than your religion" or “Islam sucks”. If you wish to discuss this stuff I suggest that go over to the MAC blog where Ismaeel and anonymous will be happy to answer (or more likely ignore) your line of questions.

I’ll put it down to your aspergers that you cannot see the problem with your analogy of Ismaeel to being a fox, while the rest of us are hounds.

Cheers,

TFI

4:21 pm  
Blogger British National Party member said...

Every time i see "TFI" i think of the chris evans show, heh ;)

5:25 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

Sir Percy said...
Something went wrong and it's clear that muslim scholars rarely reach the top of their chosen specialisation these days.

* When you say Muslim scholars, do u mean religious scholars or any type of scholar who are Muslims. In the latter camp there are many who have reached the top of the field, i'll have to get back to you with details. In the former category there has certainly been a decline.

Why is that I wonder?

Could it be anything to do with the ability to think freely?

*There are many reasons, students are encouraged to think freely and question religious dogmas. The real reasons are mainly ones of culture and money. Most Muslim societies have secularised in different ways and emphasis on secular educations is the order of the day in most Muslim countries.

Is too much emphasis placed on religious education at the expense of knowledge-based education?

*I don't think there is any clear cut division. If you look at the syllabus of the Faranghi Mahall madrassa of India in the early part of this century- they taught logic, mathematics, geography, geometry, astronomy alongside arabic grammer, Islamic jurisprudence and exegesis of the Qur'aan. This universal type of education has been lost in many madrassas however. In many parts of the world attempts to rectify this are taking place. For instance the Mihaj-ul-Qur'aan movement originating in Pakistan and the Hijaz College here in Britain.

When you look at the world these days it's China, India and some of the other smaller far-eastern countries like South Korea that are now making the running.

*Economically, i don't know how much they are contributing to civilisation as a whole.

The muslim world appears to be moving backwards rather than forwards in comparison.

*Agreed because they're people have been mired in nationalism, baathism, military dictatorships and religious cults like Wahabbism. All of course arose after the fall of the Caliphate.
Nationalism especially has created a tibalistic mentality in many Muslims who sadly view the actions of Muslims as right because they are Muslims, not because they accord or deviate from what is right and wrong.

Civilisation from my limited understanding are all the higher aspects of human life that arise from the establishment of cities. These include arts, sciences, philosophy, technology, social sciences,law, morality etc etc

5:39 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

My secret identity has been revealed!!!

6:09 pm  
Blogger dizzyfatplonka said...

If the BNP vote only increases enough to wake any moronic government up to the feelings of the country, it would be good. That will not happen with apethetic defeatists, they will wait for the army to get them out of the shit, only that will be to late, because Kofi's dhimmi UN army will intervene then and create protected jihad strongholds in our country, run by al qaeda.

7:26 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

Ben Ramm's article was very interesting. Sorry to get back to what this post is all about. What he's at heart saying is that we need to go from what Berlin called a negative concept of liberty to a positive one. It essentially amounts to liberalism is the truth, we need to campaign and spread it everywhere. An imperial liberalim if you like. The Americans have effectivley being saying this for quite some time, they got the taste for it in the cold war. This is because liberalism and capitalism tend to work best together. Sadly he tries to confuse democracy and liberalism with each other, they are very seperate concepts, although we have their unhappy marriage in much of the west, which sacrifices key ideals of both.
I especially liked the bit where he talked about how Islam spread the seeds of liberal humanism in the west.
Islamism as unnuanced and intolerant. Well certainly some manifestations of Islamism are. That's if what he means by Islamism are Islamic political movements.
I also liked the Sufi quote, the paradise of the hearts. Of course that is only attained by ceaseless devotion, aesetic exercises and gnosis of the Divine through extinguishing one's self in the love of the Prophet (SAWS)and the love of Allah (SWT).
Liberalism sadly for it's idological adherents can't promise anything so sweet.

8:24 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

Civilisation from my limited understanding are all the higher aspects of human life that arise from the establishment of cities. These include arts, sciences, philosophy, technology, social sciences,law, morality etc etc

I think that we could enjoy that cup of tea sometime.

8:32 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

InshaAllah and perhaps with a few other people from this list like TFI and Peter (if he'll forgive me for my temper tantrum on his blog the other day). Perhaps after the debate in Oxford in May.

8:37 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

http://tauseefswritings.com/RNCM.htm

I think this article by a dear friend of mine, sums up much of my own feelings about Islam as well.

9:00 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Hi Ismaeel,

> nshaAllah and perhaps with a few
> other people from this list like
> TFI and Peter (if he'll forgive
> me for my temper tantrum on his
> blog the other day). Perhaps
> after the debate in Oxford in
> May.

My we have come along way, especially considering the way I introduced myself to you :-)

I am interested in this debate, I'll see about lowering my secret identity (I'm not really Chris Evans)

> http://tauseefswritings.com/RNCM.htm

> I think this article by a dear
> friend of mine, sums up much of
> my own feelings about Islam as
> well.

I read it, I liked it.

Cheers,

TFI

9:14 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

and this:
http://tauseefswritings.com/rand.htm

9:15 pm  
Blogger Sir Percy said...

Ismaeel,

I've read your link and taken note.

Has anyone got a firm date for the Oxford debate?

I'll be visiting a Middle-Eastern country for the first time in my life during May but I hope that I'll be back for the debate.

9:17 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> http://tauseefswritings.com/rand.htm

I liked that to, little bit self congratulating, but aren't we all?

John Ware had nice thing to say about Sufism in his exposure of the MCB.

Cheers,

TFI

9:33 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> I'll be visiting a Middle-Eastern
> country for the first time in my
> life during May but I hope that
> I'll be back for the debate.

Cool, I've liked all my visits to the Middle East, they get a lot of bad press and provided you don't need to go near Saudi, you will find yourself very welcome.

Cheers,

TFI

9:40 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

Not the dreaded Panorama programme. That was dreadful

9:45 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

TFI i can't honestly remember how you introduced yourself. Though i am sure you have cached somewhere. Actually hold on i do remember. You were very uncivil. Well at least we've moved on from there.

9:51 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> Not the dreaded Panorama
> programme. That was dreadful

Out of interest, why did you think it was dreadful? I thought it was dreadful because the people at the MCB proved themselves to be such truly awful people.

> TFI i can't honestly remember how
> you introduced yourself. Though i
> am sure you have cached
> somewhere.

It’s still on your site.

> Actually hold on i do remember.

Ah ha!

> You were very uncivil.

Yes I was, very uncivil. But it was purposeful leading incivility with a plan. Sorry about that.

> Well at least we've moved on from there.

Ironically since then I've been much harder and much, much ruder to you, but did so in a civil tone. You’ve gone a bit wobbly at times, but stood up well.

*takes hat off*

Cheers,

TFI

10:27 pm  
Blogger Dan said...

Ismaeel: please learn the meaning of the word taqiyyah and it's relevance in law to Sunni Muslims. I am a Sunni Muslim and we are only allowed to use taqiyyah, which means concealing our faith i.e. me saying i am not a Muslim, when in fear of being killed for it.

You'd better take that up with Wikipedia then:

Although Taqiyya is generally thought of as a Shi'a term, according to principles defined by the great Sunni theologian al-Ghazali, lying, including protection of oneself or others, is permissible under certain circumstances:

Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…” (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745.)

On the other hand, most Sunnis generally assert that the Shi'a doctrine of Taqiyya is an act of hypocrisy that serves to conceal the truth. According to them, Taqiyya constitutes a lack of faith and trust in God because the person who conceals his beliefs to spare himself from danger is fearful of humans, when he should be fearful of God only. Nevertheless, some Sunni Muslims in fifteenth-century Spain went to the extent of eating pork and denying the Prophet in public, while practicing Islam secretly, to save their lives during the Spanish Inquisition. Other Muslims left Spain or were killed for their belief.

1:35 am  
Blogger Dan said...

Ismaeel: The punishment for adultery in Islam (having sex with someone other than your spouse while married and it being witnessed by 4 adult male Muslims) is stoning to death for men and women. As for fornication (having sex outside marriage) the punishment is 100 lashes. The reason for these harsh punishments: adultery and fornication are not victimless crimes how many people's lives are runined and families destroyed by these acts on a regular basis? You may think it is harsh, but think on this all these punishments were actually rarely applied, because they were such strong deterrants and because the weight of evidence needed was so high.

How very f*cking civil.


Whilst mocking "nicey nicey punishments of western liberal democracy" he condones stoning adulterers on the basis that "all these punishments were actually rarely applied, because they were such strong deterrants and because the weight of evidence needed was so high."

Small f*cking comfort to those who are stoned for it, eh?

If noone were ever stoned for it you might have a point. But then it wouldn't work as a deterrent I guess. A few pay the price so the rest stay clean and pure. All a bit utilitarian that. Ever come across Jeremy Bentham?

Tell me, what's more offensive and uncivil- stoning people for sleeping with someone they're not married to or publishing satirical cartoons of Muhammad? And which were you demanding that Jyllands Posten perform a monthly penance for?

Your call.

2:24 am  
Blogger Babyboots said...

All together now! Ahhhhh...TFI and Ismaeel are now best friends!

This is how Britain is eventually going to end up, an Islamic state!

I rather thought Ismaeel and Anonymous were the hounds and we'll be the fox's eventually driven out of our dens!

And considering the English populous have been brainwashed and conditioned since after the second world war, so that the unsuspecting English would accept multi-culteral living, not realising, thinking they're freely thinking but not realising they're really not thinking freely at all!

I ask this question...what is really a 'free thinker'?

I may have been conditioned by my Aspergers but I'd prefer to be a 'clever Aspie' (apart from my discalculiar) than to the supposedly, average, conditioned 60's 'free thinking' Joe Blogg!

Soon TFI, you'll be also best friends with the BNP bloke, or is that a ploy to round up everybody so that you can prove we can all be snuggly, happily, bunny-wunny multi-culteral!

6:03 am  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

Tell me, what's more offensive and uncivil- stoning people for sleeping with someone they're not married to or publishing satirical cartoons of Muhammad? And which were you demanding that Jyllands Posten perform a monthly penance for?

Your call.

The latter and yes i've read Jeremy Benham. The punishment of stoning only occured a few times under the Caliphate, those punished had voluntary approached and confessed to the judge because they sought to atone for their sins in this life by undergoing the punishment.
In the world today there is not a single state which rules by shariah so the use of shariah punishments in a vacumn of political, social and economic systems that should be in place is unwise to say the least.

7:23 am  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

You'd better take that up with Wikipedia then:

Although Taqiyya is generally thought of as a Shi'a term, according to principles defined by the great Sunni theologian al-Ghazali, lying, including protection of oneself or others, is permissible under certain circumstances:

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…” (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745.)

On the other hand, most Sunnis generally assert that the Shi'a doctrine of Taqiyya is an act of hypocrisy that serves to conceal the truth. According to them, Taqiyya constitutes a lack of faith and trust in God because the person who conceals his beliefs to spare himself from danger is fearful of humans, when he should be fearful of God only. Nevertheless, some Sunni Muslims in fifteenth-century Spain went to the extent of eating pork and denying the Prophet in public, while practicing Islam secretly, to save their lives during the Spanish Inquisition. Other Muslims left Spain or were killed for their belief.

A pretty poor article all in all. I recognise the passage by Imam Ghazzali, these principles however are widely disputed because taken to their logical conclusions by lay people can cause alot of problems. Sunnis agree that taqiyya is acceptable when in fear of one's life, but to say the truth and be killed for it is better.

7:28 am  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

So what was Ahmed Akkari doing? Or Abu Laban? Was their life threatened when they lied?

9:10 am  
Blogger Anonymous said...

"They were friendly and relaxed, yet you think that it was a "joke". That is highly prejudice and a complete refusal to look at the facts."

I'm confused friendlyinfidel I think you misunderstand, what came across as funny was that each rally and its supporters saw themselves as friendly and relaxed and the other camp as all scary and intimidating.

Despite the reversal of welcoming the cartoons you can't blame any Muslim with web access for not being very relaxed on their way to the MFE because of the very strongly anti-Muslim sentiment expressed on the boards. This had no equivelent for the other march.

"Hardly an embracement of British Liberal integrated culture and tolerance."

I beg to differ - plenty of photos of groupie girls strutting their stuff and posing for the cameras. And of course the obligatory "golly wogs" (you know the show lots of flesh for the tabloids to attract attention to X or Y posers).

I don't think any of us treat women well - as equals in just about any culture in the world. You only need to look back 20 years and a woman in the UK couldn't get so much as an overdraft without a man's consent.

So on British liberalism: Soliciting for sex is still illegal, women have to cover up their bodies more than men by law (just as they do in Saudi Arabia), and over half of 16-19 year old girls surveyed have Jordon as their role model. We have a long long way to go before we can start snivelling quite such a moralistic high ground, and we don't have to look far into our history at all to positively disgust ourselves with our own behaviour.

The other problem is our trajectory on this front goes backwards. The difference in pay between men and women in the UK has increased to 14% from 7% during the Thatcher years.

> And I heard THAT about the Danish
> - sorry MFE rally where a bunch
> of muslim youths were thrown out!
"Indeed, but no BNP nationalists turned up at the MAC demo in white sheets looking to cause trouble did they?"

Very different - they were just Muslims, whereas the BNP have an agenda to remove Muslims from the UK, and are therefore defacto threatening.

Muslims had been told they were welcome, and to be fair it was a freedom of expression march, it was not a Nationalist march was it so it was just as valid for them to be there expressing themselves as it was for people carrying Danish flags and you can see from the photos there were plenty of those.

thefriendlyinfidel remember that the communist party in Iran would ban any form of religious expression so brandishing the cartoon can have a similar type of intimidating effect, and is hypocritical. Remember double standards WERE applied at the march as cartoons were applauded and Muslim youths banned.

Amazing the number of links given to the infamous site Dhimmi watch and you blame us for thinking things like "all white on the night" ??? If it looks and smells racist it usually is.

505online how can you possibly say that:
"The BNP have just as much right to be heard, and are just as 'respectable', as the MAC."

THE BNP ARE NOT RESPECTABLE. You can't even compare them with MAC. They seek to MURDER people. MAC don't. And just because you don't see the word Murder on their Manifesto doesn't mean that's not what it is. When they send back women and men to dies in their "countries of ethnic origin" and deport people who have lived in the country as bona fide citizens for generations because of their religion or skin colour.

The BNP are not respectable at all. You are very sick if you think that and you need help if you think that.

9:17 am  
Blogger Anonymous said...

5050 glad to see the back of you you sick ****

9:18 am  
Blogger Anonymous said...

"I rather thought Ismaeel and Anonymous were the hounds and we'll be the fox's eventually driven out of our dens! "

Tough - I for one am not going anywhere babyboots, especially not with hot stuff like you around mmmm.

9:20 am  
Blogger Anonymous said...

"so that you can prove we can all be snuggly, happily, bunny-wunny multi-culteral!"

And what is so bad about that? Isn't that the objective babyboots? Hasn't it now become a global world? Have you got the "ethical commitment" to turn a "neighbourhood" into a "brotherhood" as King put it.

Oh no - I think you'd prefer a situation in which 1.2 BILLION people who happen to be Muslim are culled in Gas Chambers wouldn't you babyboots?

Babyboots?

With the emphasis on the baby - you are really a nasty piece of work.

9:25 am  
Blogger Anonymous said...

babyboots
babyboots

What did your ex-boyfriend do to you to give you such a bitter outlook on everybody else of his "kind"?

9:28 am  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

"I don't think any of us treat women well"
"you are really a nasty piece of work."
"What did your ex-boyfriend do to you to give you such a bitter outlook on everybody else of his "kind"?"

Insight, maybe?

10:48 am  
Blogger Voltaire said...

Here is a piece in the Spectator (by Rod Liddle) arguing that Islam itself is incompatible with freedom of conscience. Comments?

10:57 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> All together now! Ahhhhh...TFI
> and Ismaeel are now best friends!

I really wouldn't go that far :)

11:11 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Soon TFI, you'll be also best friends with the BNP bloke, or is that a ploy to round up everybody so that you can prove we can all be snuggly, happily, bunny-wunny multi-culteral!

BTW tomorrow I'm off with some of my friends on holiday. They include chaps of Jamican descent, one of African descent, another of Chinesse descent, another of Asian descent and me of Italian descent.

I'm living the multicultural dream baby(boots)!

Ismeaal, I've not enough time to pick up our converasion today, so you are off the hook for now.

Cheers,

TFI

11:18 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:27 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Oh, and last weekend another friend had his stag night. There were 8 of us, all "white" plus a Muslim friend (who unlike your ex-boyfriend is a really nice guy) and a Indian Hindu friend.

My Hindu friend described himself as British Indian, whereas my Muslim friend described himself as "Muslim, British Muslim".

I know for a fact that Ismaeel is not representing his views, but then he drinks beer so Ismaeel will probably see him as a "bad Muslim" or more likely a "lapsed one".

I call him a good bloke and in a few weeks I'm going visit him and his family and have a meal (not an Ismaeel, boom boom). Needless to say thing between me and him a little tense at the moment as I've been telling what I think of people in his religion that dream of "civilized stoning", but neither of us see what it has to do with our friendship.

Cheers,

TFI

11:30 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> Here is a piece in the Spectator
> (by Rod Liddle) arguing that
> Islam itself is incompatible with
> freedom of conscience. Comments?

Well I cannot get to the article, but here is a comment from Ismaeel.

> Also and i think this is
> important is that the social
> responsibility of people has a
> high premium on people in all
> traditional societies. It is only
> modern liberal society that
> places so much importance of
> individual freedom.

If I understand what Ismaeel is saying, Rod Little is correct.

As far as I understand conscience is codified into the Shiri'a and deviation from it is punishable for the "greater good".

I cannot get to the article right now ...

Cheers,

TFI

11:43 am  
Blogger FreeSpeech said...

"that Islam itself is incompatible with freedom of conscience"

I agree with this. All you have to do in Islam is believe. The Quran repeats this over and over ad nauseam.
Believing is doing what the Quran tells you.
Thinking is not believing, it's a sin.
Listening to your conscience is thinking, thus wrong.

Difficult for Muslims, as every man (man and woman, of course) does have a conscience.

I suppose all we can hope for is that these political salafists don't get through, that the democratic muslims (i.e. intellectual apostates, as the fatwas call them) prevail, and that their children forget that there was an Islam.

12:36 pm  
Blogger Polish Solidarity with Denmark said...

Voltaire, a brilliant article! Thanks!
"The song then, not the singer."
Sounds like a funeral march as well.
Anyway, it has reminded me of my still unanswered question to Ismaeel - why does Islam impose such harsh punishments on those who want to say good bye? Will there be 1.3 billion Muslims in the world otherwise? Would Rahman be still in hiding, even now a few miles away from the Vatican, still unsafe?

12:45 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

I agree with this. All you have to do in Islam is believe. The Quran repeats this over and over ad nauseam.
Believing is doing what the Quran tells you.
Thinking is not believing, it's a sin.
Listening to your conscience is thinking, thus wrong.

LOL, this makes me laugh because if you ask 95% of converts to Islam (of which i am one) is that Islam is the absolute opposite of this. The Qur'aan puts it to you to think, reflect, challenge, research and question all of it's claims. It is Christianity i think u will find that teaches you to ignore reason and science and just believe, as so many Christians have said to me.

Polish soldiarity i have to research into this as it is not something i have ever looked into in depth before. At this stage though i'd just like to point out that in Orthodoz Judaism which bases it's laws on the Torah which of course forms part of the Old Testement (i.e. part of the tradition of your Judeo-Christian values-although that notion is somewhat daft as Christians spent most of history persecuting Jews for allegedly killing Prophet Jesus (PBUH) despite their belief this was divinely ordained so he ould be resurrected) and was brought by Prophet Moses (PBUH) the punishment for adultery is also stoning to death, murder is also punishable by death and apostacy is als punishable by death.

5:09 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Amazing the number of links given to the infamous site Dhimmi watch and you blame us for thinking things like "all white on the night" ??? If it looks and smells racist it usually is.

What is wrong with the Dhimmi Watch board exactly? Does it not report news? or is it tainted like the MEMRI site?

Cheers,

TFI

6:29 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6:31 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

LOL, this makes me laugh because if you ask 95% of converts to Islam (of which i am one

There's a surprise! What were you before Ismaeel? Most people I've known that have turned to religion have previously had a mental break down or getting over a major drugs problem (For instance I've really noticed that most of the Hira Krishna people I’ve spoken to had previously had a heroin problem).

What make you turn to Religion Ismaeel, and what were you before?

Cheers,

TFI

8:54 pm  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

TFI
I was a lapsed Catholic before i became Muslim.
When i was about 14 i started to really take a heavy interest in the injustice in the world. I'd been brought up Catholic but had issues with irrational concepts like the trinity and God becoming man and being born to a woman,
I did believe in God and believed he had solutions for all our problems, otherwise he wouldn't be God.
I did alot of searching through my teenage years studying Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Rastafarianism and Gandhism. Finally i studied Islam and found it had answers to all my questions and embraced all the best aspects of all religions while eschewing all the worst features of all of them.
There wasn't a long traumatic experience that led me to Islam, sorry to disappoint you.

11:04 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Voltaire you asked:

Here is a piece in the Spectator (by Rod Liddle) arguing that Islam itself is incompatible with freedom of conscience. Comments?

This is obviously true, demonstrably true. Islam allows free thinking, just not on the subject of religion that is dictated.

Ismeaal I don't think free thinking is a bad thing, i think it's a good thing. However when it comes to understanding religious texts which were very carefully preserved along with the science of how to interpret them from the founder of the religion (PBUH)himself then if you are a believer you have to go with that.

I find it breath taking that these religious nuts can hold such contradictory ideas in their head without over heating “Islam is peaceful, but we will kill you if you leave”, “Islam is about free thinking, expect for the religion itself.”

There plenty of examples in every other religion and ideology, in each instance the believer is expected not to dwell on them. The gullible majority will always be able to do this, a minority will see these questions and see the hypocrisy the fanatics preach, and they then either become collaborators or rebels.

Having spend the last day at Auschwitz and listening how the properganda works, the dehumanlization of the opponents, the blantent hypocrisy of the ideas, death penalities for leaving the group or for speaking about against the leaders, the use of victim hood to justify the anger, it seems that the same dangerous mix of ideas is floating around today.

The only antidote to any of this is free speech, this must happen within the community, to speak out, to be a whistle blower. It frightens me that Ismaeel and Co is so keen to find out who said this, who said that, just so that “they” can “talk” to him. Muslims that speak out against the Islamist movement wind up dead of in hiding, their families threatened ostracized from their community. This is fact.

I’m not scared of Muslims, but I am scared that the power the fanatics and the collaborators have over the group. Not all Germans where Nazis, few Germans even supported the Nazis, not all Muslims are Islamists and few Muslims even support the Islamists. Very few Muslims shred tears any over the imprisonment of Abu. He was and is and embarrassment.

Auschwitz and Nazism are warnings from history, yet in Iran and much of the Middle East they question if the holocaust happened at all, they say “the time for talking is over, now is the time for action”. The time for talking never ends, the real dangers start when speech becomes muzzled, there is no free speech in Islam (see above quote) and our Western governments seem happy to start limiting ours.

Governments clearly understand the power of ideas, the power of groups, the power of devolved control (he told me to do it, blame him, not me). In the past the dangerous ideas where Nazism, Fascism, Communism they monitored libraries, listened in on phone calls, watched the activists. With the birth of the internet and secure communications they are feeling dangerously exposed and are trying to keep a lid on the situation until they get control again.

I am Islamaphobic, but I am not “Muslimaphobic”.

Cheers,

TFI

12:58 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> When i was about 14 i started to
> really take a heavy interest in
> the injustice in the world.

We all feel that way Ismeaal, few of us need to turn to a religion as the to way resolve them.

It is stupid to put all the blame for everything on the West.

A form of in justice is percuting a whole country of the actions of a single newspaper editor. This is not an injustice that bothers you. All you care about is the honor of your dead prophet and your standing within your group.

Your idea of justice, peace and respect is highly scqued.

Cheers,

TFI

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