March for Free Expression

The next phase

Wednesday, March 22, 2006

Withdrawal of Endorsement

It has been brought to our attention that the organisers of the Copenhagen rally are members of an organisation that recommends the mass deportation of Muslims from Europe.

We therefore disassociate ourselves from this group and state for the record that we completely and unreservedly oppose any such policy.

[addendum: The first comment on this thread shows we can't take anything as read, so for the record we in no way seek to limit the freedom of speech of any group. We do, however, reserve the right to choose who we associate our campaign with.]

68 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Voltaire,

Are you not losing the plot, free speech means free speech!

1:30 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No – nobody is saying they are not allowed to give way for their opinion - I think Voltaire is in the right about this one! The “Den Danske Forening” (the Danish organizers) does not represent the same agenda as “March for Free Expression” and hence should not get an endorsement.

But I can’t help to be sorry – I live in Copenhagen and was hoping to show up on the 25th – but given it’s “Den Danske Forening” that is organizing it I think I will just stay at home :-(

1:45 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They sound good - any website?

1:49 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I quite agree with that last comment! How can you disassociate with the danes for what was said in relation to muslims.Surely that is what free speech is about!!! Or are you changing the goalposts!!! Free speech on your terms it seems!

1:50 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No body says "No for freedom of speech". However, if you your speech is about something you no little about or you don't know what does it mean at all, this indicate to one of three things:
- You follow people and you don't use your mind to see whats wrong and what it's right.
- racist
- have no respect for thier selves and other people

my point is, Protestors to wear T-shirts with Muhammad Cartoons at Rally this Saturday. meanwhile, the majority of Protestors know Muslims but they know nothing about Islam. Muslim are human, makes mistakes but Islam is complete religion.

let tell you something, in order to know whay muslims have all this respect and love for their religion and Prophet. Use the following link to read some of his history, Please read :

mohammad.islamway.com/

2:29 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

here you go:

http://www.dendanskeforening.dk/side27.html

(in english)

2:43 pm  
Anonymous man said...

JUst because we recognise their right to say something stupid does not mean we have to endorse it. The campaign for free expression is not trying to stop the Dansk Forening march, just not endorsing it.

This is the error that the anti-freedom groups, such as the Islamists make: just because we have permitted someone to show a cartoon of M does not mean we endorse it. And just because we reprint it in defiance of death threat (kill them? then kill me too!) does not mean we actually endorse it either.

3:24 pm  
Anonymous man said...

that's my take on it: Voltaire's may or may not be different.

3:25 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

alot of backpeddling going on here, does that mean that the agendas of all the organisations and individuals listed on the sidebar are endorsed by the Free Expression campaign. Good luck in explaining that.

4:23 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Agree with man on this one, I think.

How can the Danish rally organisers claim to be in favour of free speech while at the same time wanting to deport all Muslims from Europe? That is not freedom of expression.

4:35 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Also, what about this surprise announcement we were promised, or did that happen yesterday afternoon?

4:42 pm  
Anonymous riot act said...

more comedy from the free expressionists


gotta larf eh!

4:44 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"if you your speech is about something you no little about or you don't know what does it mean at all" etc

Well, so if you don't know what cartoons mean in the western world, then please stop criticizing.
(I am just using your own logic)

4:45 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is it just me or is this comments section being used to promote the blogs of people who would otherwise get zero attention?

5:06 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Feeding the trolls but...

The constant accusations of "schoolboy" ring especially hollow when one reads though the simplistic and reductive 'arguing' on The Void. Why do you even bother coming here if you have such contempt?

It works like this: Many organisations claim to nominally be in favour of 'free expression' while actually being quite the opposite. I do not see how the people behind the Copenhagen rally can claim to back free expression while at the saim time having the quite ludicrous aim of departing all Muslims from Europe. Their double stanards are not dissimilar to Global Civility, who claim to want 'civility', whgen what they actually mean is exception for Islam from all debate and discussion, unless it is achingly reverential. The aims of both of these groups is not consistent with the MFE, and that, I suspect, is why the organisers have withheld support for both.

Now you may well not agree with me there, and to be honest It's not going to vex me too much, but accusations of schoolboy politics are a bit rich from people who seem only capable of adopting a simple diametric view which says 'left wing - good guys, right wing - bad guys'. I hate to break it to you, but it's just not that simple.

5:15 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Apologies for bad typing, I was in a hurry.

5:20 pm  
Anonymous otherside said...

It's not only Islam that requires a response to curbs on free speech:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4834738.stm

5:35 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You say: "It has been brought to our attention that the organisers of the Copenhagen rally are members of an organisation that recommends the mass deportation of Muslims from Europe."

Why don't you make a check on what you are talking about before you lanch such a statement? If you go to the home page of dendanskeforening.dk , english version, you can easily see that your statement is obviously a distortion of the fact. Where did you get your version of the facts from?

Freedom of speach is chained not only by censureship and and physical violence but also by false accusations against the ones who want to express themsselves.

Shame on you!

5:40 pm  
Blogger the void said...

ok, here goes

"Many organisations claim to nominally be in favour of 'free expression' while actually being quite the opposite. "

absolutely, including some of the rightist organisations on this march the freedom association and the libertarian alliance to name but to, as im sure youll agree, bigotry and respect for freedom of expression do not make easy bedfellows

now i am not in favour of the banning of these cartoons by any means and at the risk of being accused of promoting my blog (which is now dripping with more than one racist comment since i posted here) i point you to Cartoon Warfare Breaks Out should you be interested in my opinion

now if you read my original piece you will see that my anger is directed at those who argue this cause is somehow progressive or liberal

if you on the right wish to hold an anti-islam march then go ahead and i hope youre met with a fierce unity of antifascist and islamic resistance much like the bnp have been in burnley, bradford etc

my comments are directed towards those who see themselves on the left/radical left

and my question remains, what are your demands?

ive said on other places, these cartoons wre not banned, and for those whove bothered to read their website this is not a demand of global civility, who really wish for an amendment to the Press Complaints Commission Code of Practice.

we currently have a system of free speech in this country, which includes the right to demonstrate against publications who print material you find offensive

i here all this talk of our free speech being under threat, but i see no evidence of it ... you point to an organisation whose demands you misrepresent, a few complaints to the bbc about a musical two years ago, and a play being pulled after complaints in the local community ... much the same as happened to the sex pistols and countless hip hop and other performers since, and we didnt see the right getting all het up about that ... or the criminal justice act for that matter which criminalised events playing a certain type of music, where were the freedom association then?

and as freedom of speech is far from under attack, as this website, my blog and global civilitys site clearly show, then what is the purpose of this march unless its an attempt by the right to build an anti-islamic coalition with the handful on the left sucked in

i notice a distinct lack of leftist commentators supporting this event on this site by the way ... why do you think that might be?

6:41 pm  
Blogger Dan said...

Well said Man.

"I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom, speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking."

Woodrow Wilson, 1919.

And as for the straw-man argument on back-pedaling brought up by "anonymous", the organisations in the side-bar have endorsed the March. That does not mean that the March endorses them. If it did, the organisers would be communist Liberal Democrat libertarians who voted UKIP.

If I endorse the Labour Party, does that mean the Labour Party endorses my views?

Perhaps you could have a little think about that.

6:49 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

I don't really understand how you are deciding who is leftist and who is rightist. I find the terms quite redundant to be honest. I'll leave it to you to decide where you want to pigeonhole me, though.

I think you misrepresent the extent and nature of the protests against Behzti and JS:TO. I don't know if you do this deliberately. It was not just "a few complaints". I suggest you look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4112105.stm

The anti-reactions to the JS:TO, Behzti and the Motoons have all been attempts by certain groups to exempt their own beliefs from criticism, ridicule and offence. We all hold deep-rooted beliefs, be they religious or otherwise. I do not think that any belief should be granted exemtion from criticism (such as Global Civility are seeking to do with Islam), simply on the basis that it draws its ideas from some holy book. I can't speak for anyone else on here, but that is the only thing that I am demanding, to stand up against attempts to restrict freedom of speech.

There are numerous attempts to restrict free speech, not least from Global Civility (I find it bizarre that you claim their existence shows that freedom of speech is safe - have you seen their demands?). These demands are opposed both by groups that you would regard as 'right wing' and groups that you would regard as 'left wing'. I have no doubt that I disagree with a lot of the people who are supporting this march, but I will nevertheless be there, to defend that right to disagree in the first place.

6:56 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

This link will hopefully work.

6:58 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Ah sod it!

6:58 pm  
Blogger the void said...

if your talking about protests in other countries particularly in the middle east then those arguments are just not relevent to the situation in the uk, especially as many of them remain in fear of the sound of B52's flying over thier towns and cities every morning, if some from the islamic community may appear to be behaving in an over-sensitive way then its not difficult to see why

if your talking about a few pumped up young men with silly placards then please ... don't you understand that when you hurt someone their instinct may be for them to hurt you back just as much, which is why a few testosterone cases decided to use as offensive imagery as possible and some in the middle east brought up the old holocaust denial palava

my constant schoolboy jibes have been aimed at both sides of this debate, youre acting like children for gods sake, the world teeters on the edge of a real breakdown in already fragile relationships, with all the death, destruction and misery that would cause for us all

and your having silly rows about some cartoons, the issue of which would have easity died down by now in the uk were it not for this event

why up the ante?

those who care for a free and just society should be attempting to build bridges, not burn them

i was actually uncharacteristicly almost proud of the british media who chose not to publish these cartoons

just as im ashamed of those who will choose to pour fuel on the fire by displaying those images on saturday

7:21 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am the Harry Vinter, who is the reason of this discussion. I am member of "Den Danske Forening" (DDF), and I helped to initiate the manifestation in Copenhagen as a private person. DDF is not the organizer and will not be mentioned in any way.
But let me inform you, that DDF was founded by veterans of WW2. One of the people still in the Committee of DDF (Mr. Dalgaard) was tortured by Gestapo for printing illegal magazines.
Now he is not considered worthy of March for Free Expression.
Shame on you!

7:50 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've watched this brawl, and frankly, I'm disappointed. Withdrawing support for the Danish initiative is to me a strong overreaction, which leads to fracturing and weakening of the initiative. Instead you could have made a statement that you don't share that point of view, but appreciate the support for free expression.

For the record, I don't share that particular view of Den Danske Forening either - I believe it to be wrong for several reasons. But DDF does take the challenges seriously and are doing what they believe is the best for our future freedom. They are founded by people who put their lives on the line to fight the nazi invaders. They are not right-wing extremists.

How about you change your position to something in the line of: "We appricate the Danish manifestation, without sharing all views or goals of Den Danske Forening." That would avoid fracturing the initiative.

A side note on free speech: In Denmark, we're free to say whatever we like. But if what we're saying constitutes a crime, that crime will be punished.

Good luck!

8:27 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for clarifying the situation Voltaire. Keep up the great work!

8:30 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is very disappointing - I mean, the "disassociation" with the Danish protesters. I feel dismayed, and may now not attend the rally anymore, because I want to disassociate myself with whimps who can't stand free expression of views. Goodbye.

8:42 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Once again:
Den Danske Forening is not organizer of the rally in Copenhagen!
It is organized by individual people.
Stop mentioning this organization!

8:49 pm  
Anonymous aeneas said...

Hi there the void

What are your views on the death sentence, imposed on the gentleman in Afghanistan, for converting from Islam to Christianity? Is it justified?

For more details see (you might need to type this this address in as it wouldn't fit on one line so I had to divide it):
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/
asiapcf/03/22/afghan.christian/index.html

9:04 pm  
Blogger the void said...

and how is that relevent to this discussion?

perhaps you should be marching in kabul

good luck

9:20 pm  
Blogger Henrik said...

Hey The void

You seem to believe that a bunch of cartoons is a worse problem than the violent protests? I recommend not giving in to this kind of bullying, if we are to retain our right to express ourselves freely.

It does have costs. London suffered heavily during WWII, and we're not even talking costs at that level here. If we stand in solidarity behind our right to draw caricatures and critizise Islam, we might get some bruises initially.

But the alternative is radically worse. Slowly eradicating any cultural expression not compatible with Islam (think 'Piglet' here). Giving up the right to be critical against anything labeled 'holy'. Watch as more and more persons and subjects will carry that label, and our opportunity to be critical fades into the sunset.

Not desireable, is it?

Better stand up now and take the flak. We can stand it. It's worth it.

9:20 pm  
Blogger the void said...

hang on...

hasnt europe managed to live without publishing depictions of allah quite happily up until now

have you felt that your free speech has been seriously curtailed ... really

"Slowly eradicating any cultural expression not compatible with Islam"

have you read some of the comments on this blog, or the sun/daily mail recently, thats hardly a cause for concern compared to the islamophobia thats sweeping the western world lately

nothing you say stands up, we are hardly trembling at the loss of our freedom of speech (although i note no-one has yet brought up the glorification of terrorism bill, passed by the lords tonight - a genuinely dangerous measure to the rights of free expression)

the cartoons werent banned, no-one in the uk is asking for them to be banned particularly, just for the media to show a little cultural sensitivity, a lesson the media could do with being reminded of regularly given its record

and for the record, no protests against the cartoons in the uk were violent, and as ive said if your talking about actions in other countries, well that merits a different response and a different event, as it is not relevant to the realities of the uk

9:36 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Voltaire,

I am now very confused.

A new clear post is needed.

9:37 pm  
Anonymous aeneas said...

Hello again the void

Very well. If you cannot answer that question I’ll ask you another. You seem to be saying that anyone who criticises Islam (a multiracial religion) is a racist. Do you believe that anyone who criticises the United States (a multiracial state) is also a racist?

9:43 pm  
Blogger the void said...

this is a pure play on semantics and quite boring

anyone who generalised the us people in a negative way would be acting in a racist manner imo

if making offensive remarks or printing cartoons depicting the most supreme blasphemy of anothers faith, with a view to provocation and little else is not racism technically, well who cares, its still just as offensive, divisive and damaging

9:51 pm  
Blogger Henrik said...

Hi void

You said:
and for the record, no protests against the cartoons in the uk were violent.

The UK protests had the most outspoken death threats of them all. Death threats are crimes, period. They cannot be protected as 'religious feelings' just because they are carried out by muslims.

More quote:
the cartoons werent banned, no-one in the uk is asking for them to be banned particularly, just for the media to show a little cultural sensitivity.

Do you realize how Orwellian this sounds? "Of course we don't order the media to tow the line, we just strongly suggest them to do so."

The government should not in any way interfere with what the media publishes, or the press will find itself no better off than in Russia. The Danish government struggled hard to avoid that, but the pressure was intense, and our PM did make some statements that could be interpreted in a similar way.

Government, please leave the press alone!

10:01 pm  
Blogger the void said...

god, you libertarians your so hung up on what government should do

i never said that the government should control the media, but that the media should take responsibility to act with sensitivity for the good of us all

which in this case the uk media, aprt froma few right wing blogs and bnp sheets, none of whom were censored

you say that the uk protesters carried illegal placards, perhaps, thats for the court

the issue we were disuccing was violence

or is the shoddy rally wholly directed at less than 20 people, mostly probably teenagers who managed to grab the headlines for 5 minutes

10:17 pm  
Anonymous aeneas said...

Hello again the void

Whether or not you are finding our little debate a bit tiresome is of no concern to me; I am merely trying to gain clarification in order to understand you and your beliefs better.

Your comments earlier seemed to be indicating that people involved in the rally were racist. Do you mean one person, two people, everybody? Are you making generalisations?

Regarding the post about the man in Afghanistan, it is directly relevant because I saw a recent newspaper article which suggested (following an ICM poll) that 40% of British Muslims would support the idea of Shariah Law in Britain. If you are saying that Islam is beyond criticism then you seem to be suggesting, in my humble opinion, that we should be under Shariah Law here too which would presumably deliver similar punishments.

Regarding criticising the United States, the United States government represents the people of the United States, as does the US flag. If it is offensive to depict the Muslim Prophet then is it also offensive to burn the United States flag?

10:56 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about you change your position to something in the line of: "We appricate the Danish manifestation, without sharing all views or goals of Den Danske Forening." That would avoid fracturing the initiative.

Volataire has never understood such a way of thinking. If he did, he would not have made unprovoked politcal statements from day one.

It's a crying shame really, because I would choose Volataires understanding of freedom of expression over Void's any day.

Welcome to British politics. In the this land, people are more interested in what they disagree about, than what they agree about.

1:43 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey void guy, Have you ever done it with a lady?
Didn't think so!
Try it, I know you'll probably have to pay for it off a prozzy but you'll feel a hell of a lot more relaxed afterwards.

2:00 am  
Blogger Dan said...

the void: "absolutely, including some of the rightist organisations on this march the freedom association and the libertarian alliance to name but to, as im sure youll agree, bigotry and respect for freedom of expression do not make easy bedfellows"

Um, what's the Libertarian Alliance's bigotry? I'd be interested to know.

You accuse the March organisers of misrepresenting the MAC, yet do exactly the same yourself, suggesting that the right-wing endorsers of the March are currently on a par with those calling for all Muslims to be deported.

That is simply untrue. Admittedly, the Freedom Association used to be
pretty dodgy, but from what I can see it has cleared up its act in
recent years and noone has presented to me any evidence to the contrary. Little Englanders they may be, but racists who want enforced repatriation they are not.

You are right in that the cartoons were not banned, but who chose to
show them? The Spectator did on its website but withdrew them after the
police couldn't guarantee their safety. The BBC showed blacked out
versions, once, and also managed to unwittingly show one of the fakes in
a report from the Palestinian territories. The first many people (such as my nan) will get to see of them will be when the BNP post them
through their letter box.

As someone on the Left, do you not object to the BNP using the Left's inaction and squabbling over the decision of Jyllands Posten to publish the cartoons to seize this argument as their own? I certainly do.

Regardless of JP's right to publish, the moment all the death threats,
bounties and rioting started, everyone had the right to see what the fuss was about, without having to rely on BNP propaganda to see the
cartoons. That our media felt it inappropriate to show the cause of the rioting (or even go into detail about the faked cartoons) is something that I believe ought to be protested. Whether this was down to
religious considerations or just fear of violent repercussions should be discussed.

You also misrepresent the March by not appreciating it is also about
standing up for those around the world who are fighting to defend (or
sadly win) the right to free speech and expression, who face violence,
arrest or worse at the hands of hostile regimes or religious bodies they dare to criticise.

You claim that there aren't any "leftist commentators" on this site.
I'd counter that and say, that with a few notable exceptions, most
people on this site haven't shown their political affiliations because
(with the exception of parties that advocate achieving their goals
through violence) being left or right wing is irrelevant here. Do you honestly think that if this march was intended to be organised as a right-wing anti-Islam rally the organisers would have asked a communist human rights campaigner to speak? Or a Lib Dem?

The final part of your post is rather muddled but seems to amount to no more than: "A group that endorses the march didn't do anything in the past about free speech, so why should the rest of us let them join us to do something about it now." It's the same argument that anti-war types
were using before Kosovo - "America's record of foreign policy is so appalling, why should we join them to oust Milosevic now?" i.e. a poor one.

That commenters have chosen to focus on the religious aspect is neither
here nor there. There will always be nutters on a blog that is
advocating freedom of speech and expression. Some want to test how far the organisers are prepared to go in their support of free speech,
whilst others post deliberately inflammatory remarks in order to
discredit the rally.

The organisers have made it perfectly clear that this is not an
Islamophobic march and your endless accusations are starting to wear a
little thin.

Which part of "Fascists are not welcome" do you not understand?

Which part of "People carrying banners or placards which state 'All
Muslims are X/Y/Z', are racist or advocate violence will be asked to
take them down" do you not understand?

Which part of "The Met will happily remove anyone who refuses to abide
by the above two rules" do you not understand?

I'm guessing all of it.

You say freedom of speech is not under attack. Go to Minsk, try joining the protest there and see how far you get.

3:32 am  
Anonymous Rastaman said...

Hey everyone, the reason that anonymous clown calls him/her/it self "the void" is because there's nothing there, and you should take the hint. This creature just loves to stir up trouble. If this were a march for Islam it would be harping against Islam. It's like picking at a scab. If you just ignore it and it will go away.

The organizers of this march have every right to choose who they endorse. I don't hear them saying that they will attempt to block anyones participation, do you? This is a public demonstration of defense for freedom of speech, not for defense of Coffee Growers or Totalitarianism or Basque Separatism. If Coffee Growers and Basques wish to join in, no doubt they can, but does this mean the march is obligated to endorse them?
Use your heads here amd try to ignore all the specious arguments. They're all from people opposed to this march who are trying to sow the seeds of doubt.

3:57 am  
Blogger the void said...

'All
Muslims are X/Y/Z', are racist or advocate violence'

will that include people carrying banners showing a cartoon which insiunuates all muslims are suicide bombers ... where is the line drawn?

"Do you honestly think that if this march was intended to be organised as a right-wing anti-Islam rally the organisers would have asked a communist human rights campaigner to speak? Or a Lib Dem?"

its exactly what they would do, do you have any knowledge of the far rights past techniques in the uk?

it has been suggested that the political axis is no longer about left and right, but fascism and anarchy

as an anarchist, passionate about freedom of expression, i would suggest that this march leans towards fascism rather than building a grassroots internationlist movement which benefits all

dont believe for one second that the freedom association have changed their spots. just like the bnp they have learnt what is and isnt acceptable to promote publically

and their version of freedom of expression only means freedom of expression for them whilst they push their ultra right economic policies such as banning public sector strikes, leaving those at the bottem with out even basic human rights, never mind freedom of expression

8:53 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the void,

"We want a society in which people can debate, agree, disagree, annoy and offend each other without anyone being threatened, hurt, killed or imprisoned."

thats the bottom line, accept it.

9:23 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:41 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:41 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:42 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:42 am  
Blogger the void said...

"We want a society in which people can debate, agree, disagree, annoy and offend each other without anyone being threatened, hurt, killed or imprisoned."

bot where does that line get drawn, or is this a demonstration for pacifism rather than freedom of expression

this is not some trivial little insult to devout muslims, but out and out blasphemy, the jyllands posten knew that, thats why they published the cartoons, which were not funny, inciteful or useful

to focus on those cartoons is not calling for the right to free expression, but to call for the right to publicly unnecessarily insult the core foundations of someones belief just to provoke a reaction

will post a communique from peter tatchell about this later, whereby he confirms he will still speak but addresses the issues he will be focussing on

i dont agree with him, he comes from an internationalist human rights perspective and i dont think that will be the focus of this event, hence little involvement from amnesty et al

a stronger position would be to ask people to attend not to carry those cartoons, thereby showing that the demonstrators arent just wanting an excuse to have a go at islam, and showing that with their right to free speech comes an individuals responsibility

i ask you, in the present form what do you think this event is likely to achieve?

9:46 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:46 am  
Blogger yas_khalik said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:46 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith

But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God


But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed


When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?


But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!


Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?


But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!


When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.

But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!


When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!


When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.


But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!


When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.


When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.



But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!


Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.


But question what the Quran says!

i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?

why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?

The name islam derives from PEACE!

9:47 am  
Blogger the void said...

well said, four times was a bit much tho :)

9:49 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yas_khalik,

You clearly don't know anything about Islam as Islam means submission to the Will of Allah and obedience to His Law.

Nothing about peace whatsoever.

10:05 am  
Blogger Ismaeel said...

Islam comes from two arabic words one meaning submission, one meaning peace. Islam means peace through submitting one's will to the will of Allah (SWT)
To know Allah's will is our greatest treasure.
To do Allah's will is our greatest pleasure.

10:54 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ismaeel,

I don't really want to get tied up in the definition of words, because it is actions that count.

However, you are talking about personal inner peace, not world peace as yas_khalik was inferring.

Anyway, will you be at the rally supporting freedom of speech? I do hope so, as it effects us all.

11:07 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

I hope these trolls see daylight and turn to stone. They expose themselves to irrational and uneducated. I refuse to feed them, although I'll reserve the right to riducule and beiittle them.

Voltaire, you do the right thing to withdraw the endorsement.

To suggest that all Muslims should be expelled from Europe is ridiculous and utterly impractical, does not further our cause nor provide any solution to any issue that concerns us.

They should have the ability to speak, but we can choose not to allow them to use us as a platform.

11:33 am  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Isn't it great though, how there are people here who quite clearly disagree very fundamentally with with each other on a subject they feel very strongly about, and yet neither side is insisting that the other not be allowed to say their piece, or threatening to behead anyuone.

12:05 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

But does anyone listen?

I think that one of the problem with the internet is that you can focus solely on talking to people that agree with you and not bother to read what is written by people that you don't.

Its good to see this being discussed, but it ought be happening face to face.

12:15 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

No, I very rarely witness an internet 'debate' with a genuine exchange and flow of ideas. People aren't generally looking to ask questions in a bid to move towards some sort of answer, they've already decided what the answer is and now they want to ensure that everyone else sees things their way too. We're probably all guilty of this, to varying extents. The MFE is about encouraging as diverse a range of views as possible, not restricting them and viewing everything in terms of "right" or "wrong".

12:39 pm  
Anonymous Ypsilantis said...

What I will be protesting is primarily an international issue - the intimidation, boycotts and embassy assaults directed against our friend and ally Denmark by a number of Islamic states simply for refusing to punish or censor its own citizens in violation of the basic principles of the Danish state, and the failure of our own and other Western nations to stand up for the Danes in this situation. The Danish state has acted quite properly and I wish to stand in support of it against this intimidation.

I also wish to register my disgust at the tacit acceptance of the principle of censorship to protect religious sensibilities in this country, which puts us on a very dangerous slippery slope indeed.

I particularly wish to register my disgust over arrogant demands from the Turkish state that Europe should abase itself and officially institute censorship to protect Islamic religious sensibilities - this from a state founded on the organised ethnic cleansing of non-Muslim minorities (and still tries to suppress by law even the honest discussion of the relevant historical events), that continues to illegally occupy a large portion of one European nation (Cyprus) by military force and threaten war against another (Greece), that continues to behave with the imperial arrogance of its precursor state which oppressively occupied the entire Balkan region for centuries - enslaving entire nations in the process - and which, despite all this, seems to feel itself entitled to join the EU on the basis that it still controls a small fragment of the European territory it previously conquered.

I further wish to register my disgust at the notion that criticism of the character of the historical figure of Mohammed be placed under the taboo of 'racism' - whatever one's view on the righteousness or otherwise of his cause, it is unquestionably true that he was a warlord and conqueror who personally lead armies and instituted a system of theocratic imperialism (the Caliphate) which presided over centuries of warfare and conquest (until its dissolution after the First World War), and that this creates complex problems for the modernisation and secularisation of Islam quite different to those of Christianity (whose founder had no involvement in politics or temporal power and made no prescriptions as to the nature and conduct of government). The Prophet of Islam provides a strong example of violence in a (from the Muslim point of view) righteous cause which has been used and abused by all sorts of factions in Islamic societies for centuries - this is the 'bomb in the turban', however crude an image that may be - and it needs to be addressed not ignored. Muslims have to accept that other cultures (e.g. Greece, India) have had extremely negative historical experiences of the religious conquests of the Caliphate initiated by Mohammed and his successors and that they will have to come to terms with this, rather than trying to force lip-service agreement with their view on the rest of the world by the direct fear of violence or the indirect fear of social censure - something which only creates greater resentment.

12:51 pm  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

> People aren't generally looking
> to ask questions in a bid to move
> towards some sort of answer,
> they've already decided what the
> answer is and now they want to
> ensure that everyone else sees
> things their way too. We're
> probably all guilty of this, to
> varying extents.

Here, here. I know I can be guilty of it.

Again this is why free speech is good, so that you have the oppotunity to reason, to change.

There will always be people that refuse to change. Some people can never admit mistakes, they are weaker for it.

3:38 pm  
Blogger Andy M said...

'Anonymous', you have asked for this. Post a pile of drivel once, and you can get away with it. Post it repeatedly, and you get a fisking. This is mine, and believe me, I am pulling my punches, because you are clearly both weak and weak-minded.

Anonymous said...
>Why a Jew can grow his beard in order to practice his faith.
>But when Muslim does the same, he is called an extremist and terrorist!
~Please cite an example of this. As far as I know, the growing of beards, deplorable though it is, has not yet led anyone to be called a terrorist.

>Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God
>But when a Muslim woman does the same she is oppressed.
~What a tediously stupid question. Because she’s a nun, not a housewife. She made a choice. When squads of bearded thugs are roaming around Italy beating up women who are not dressed like nuns, your question might make sense. Until then, it’s just pathetically silly.

>When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?
>But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"!
~No, they don’t. (This is too easy – you really need to try a bit harder). They say she needs to be liberated when she is forced to do so against her will. I expect you believe that this never happens. I’m guessing you haven’t had many relationships with women.

>Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom?
>But when Muslim girl wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!
~Where? In France, maybe, for good reasons to do with their secular Republic. Not in the UK. Again, can you cite a specific case? I doubt it.

>When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential.
>But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless!
~This is quite true. I’m glad you recognise the fact. Studying medicine, the law, history or languages, for example, may help you to grow as a person and be useful to society. Studying the Koran won’t. Sorry, but that’s just a fact.

>When a Christian or a Jew kills someone religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!
~Oh please! Islam is mentioned when it is material to the case. As it was in the crimes in New York, Madrid and London, for example. Just for example – there are dozens, if not hundreds, of such cases. Similarly, other religions are mentioned when they are claimed as motivating factors. Look at the killings of abortionists in the USA, or the assassination of Shamir. Are you ready to grow up yet?

>When someone sacrifices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him.
>But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated -- He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim?!
~No, because he is a terrorist. What fantastic lies you do tell. When someone walks into a restaurant, or a nightclub, and blows himself up, we call him a terrorist. The instances you cite are basically fantasies. Why don’t you bring up a specific case? The media, on the whole, bend over backwards to be sympathetic to the Palestinian ‘cause’ . I take it this is what you are referring to. You need to learn the difference between legitimate self-defence and murder. As do the Palestinians.

>When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, we refuse to take a look at it.
~Ha ha! You’re hilarious. What solutions, exactly, are there in Islam? Why don’t you be specific? Then I might at least take you seriously.

>When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car.
>But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!
~If the driver of the car blamed an engineering fault in the machine, we would investigate the claim. And when people claim to be killing in the name of Islam, we investigate that claim. And guess what – they are!

>Without looking to the tradition of Islam, people believe what the newspapers say.
>But question what the Quran says!
~I don’t know what world you’re living in, mate. In mine, we question everything.

>i think people who are anti-islamist dont really know what islam is all about. its about peace and the terrorists who cause such a massacres should not be called muslims because terrorism, murder etc is FORBIDDAN in islam and is therefore against the laws of islam so stop critising the religion. why is chritianity not criticised in the same way if the religions are alike?
~ Mm. Maybe because nobody has so far threatened to kill anyone who draws a picture of Jesus. Are you really as dim as you seem to be?

>why does the media always try to put bad/false influence on the people who know nothing of islam and therefore interpret it that way?
~I dunno – you tell me. You can’t, can you?

>The name islam derives from PEACE!
~Maybe, but as far as I’m aware, it derives from ‘SURRENDER’. I don’t.

1:43 am  
Blogger Andy M said...

Dear readers, the above comment was posted purely as an exercise in argument and not because I expect 'anonymous' to respond to it. I doubt that he will even read my reply. Why is it that posters like this one always post and run? Is it because they are too scared to take part in a frank discussion of their views? If so, what is it that they are scared of exactly? Surely it can't be the thought that they might actually lose the argument - after all, Islam has ALL the answers.

Cue comment from johnny void calling me a racist. Sigh.

1:49 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The “Den Danske Forening” (the Danish organizers) does not represent the same agenda as “March for Free Expression” and hence should not get an endorsement."

But if the Den Danske Forening march is a march for freedom of speech then surely that is the same agenda as the March For free Expression? What is the March For Free Expression's agenda then?

-Jason

6:13 pm  
Anonymous DSS06 said...

“Barmcake”….let me clarify it……i don’t know about Anonymous…but I had been through this….so you said cite an example…..
Although there are hundreds examples of western bias calling and treating bearded Muslims as Terrorist…..but I would just mention one which I experienced personally…..
Now your answer about headscarf is pathetically silly…..instead of answering the question you started a dance around it…..
Now I understand ya’ll are great liberators……but may be ya’ll should look at your own home and give equal rights to Western women first……discrimination against women in western society is anything but a secret……….if you need an example just get out of “we are so good syndrome” and look at your society very closely……
Stop hiding behind FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION…….its ain’t gonna fool anyone but your self’s……

9:08 pm  
Blogger Andy M said...

Thanks, dss06. It's good to see someone having a go. Now then:
>Although there are hundreds examples of western bias calling and treating bearded Muslims as Terrorist…..but I would just mention one which I experienced personally…..

Okay, you've mentioned it. Do you want to say what actually happened? Did some thick bloke call you 'Osama'? Or were you carrying a rucksack on the underground and someone got up and moved away from you? Was your picture published in the paper with the word 'terrorist' under it? What happened?

I once wore a beret in Wigan town centre. I got called a puff, and was nearly thumped.

My brother wore an Afghan coat. He got called a hippy, and was chased through the town by yobboes.

And beard-wearing Jews are frequently insulted, and much worse, on the streets of Stamford Hill. What does all this prove?That nasty, prejudiced people exist everywhere. Special pleading for Muslims doesn't get us very far. There isn't really any more prejudice against them than there is against anyone who dares to look different. Admittedly, the prejudice has probably got worse recently. But then a lot of people have been blown up recently. I agree that it isn't fair to call all bearded Muslims terrorists. But you must admit that a small number of Muslims ARE terrorists, whether bearded or entirely hairless. If I went around wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt, I ought not to be surprised if I occasionally got called a Commie.

As for my dance around 'the headscarf thing', I guess you are referring to the question about women being described as 'oppressed'. Let's ignore the fact that women simply ARE oppressed in many Islamic societies (the men are oppressed too, by the way), and instead focus on the original questioner's comparison between nuns and ordinary Muslim women. The point I wanted to make, and ended up making badly, was just this: in western societies we do not expect women to dress like nuns, act like nuns or think like nuns. We would regard this as oppressive in the extreme. It often seems as if Islamic fundamentalists (and by the warped logic that tars everyone with the brush wielded by their very worst representatives, Muslim males in general) want to make their sisters, wives and daughters do exactly that. That is oppressive. When a climate is created in which women face violence and murder for breaking with certain codes of behaviour, it is to be deplored and resisted. Now, I am not saying that this does not happen to some degree in all societies. It does. And it has to be resisted in all societies. In this country, we've come a long way, but nowhere near far enough yet. In that context, the attempt by some to force women into dressing like nuns is seen as an attack on the freedom of all women. And it is, too.

I hope that clarifies a few things. I think this thread is probably dead, but you are very welcome to come and have a go at me on my blog any time. It would be nice if we could understand each other better.

1:44 pm  

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