Muslims are Welcome: No Danish cartoons, please
At the very start of this campaign, we said this is a march in support of freedom of expression, not a march against Muslims. We meant it. But there has been a lot of mistrust about this from Muslims, and some disappointment from those who would like to use it to attack all followers of Islam. The latter is of no consequence to us; the former is a great concern.
Comments here have been illuminating. Particularly striking has been the use of the "First they came for..." motif both by people who feel under attack by Muslims, and by Muslims who feel under attack in Britain and Europe. Let's ignore whether these sentiments have reflected reality. The fact is they do represent the way people feel. People feel under attack from each other, there is vast mistrust and misunderstanding.
At the outset, we said that displays of the Danish cartoons would be welcome on Saturday. No, let me rephrase that: At the outset, I, Peter Risdon, said the cartoons would be welcome. I am going to take full responsibility for this. I now think that was a mistake.
In practice, Muslims who wholeheartedly endorse our statement of principle, as quoted below by Peter Tatchell in his superb essay, who abhor the threats made against Danish cartoonists and believe people should have the right to publish things they themselves find offensive or abhorrent would be UNABLE to come to our rally on Saturday, because to be surrounded by these cartoons, now, in the present context when the BNP are using them as a rallying point, would be intolerable.
So I now appeal to people not to bring the cartoons on T-shirts or placards.
Instead, because the principle of free expression must be upheld in this context as well, we will arrange a forum in which they can be seen and debated without this being, in context, intimidating to anyone.
The principle of freedom of expression is used, by some, as a trojan horse, as a proxy for racism and islamophobia. Not by me. Not by us. Not by this campaign.
380 Comments:
LOL a U-Turn
I knew it. This is becoming a campaign AGAINST the cartoons. A campaign that has been hijacked by Muslims so they can have a 3rd march against free speech!
This is surely what the march is about. By restricting the free speech of the protestors you will play into the hands of Islamophobia Watch, Salma Yaqoob, MAC, MPACUK and more importantly the racist BNP. I'm very disappointed by this turn of events. The campaign should be for free expression, not free expression decided by Islamist and far right pressure.
This is wrong. I will not be turning up.
whilst the void would hope they'd go further and refuse a platform to Freedom Associationers and Libertarian Alliancers, this is a noble compromise and the void wishes them well.
to all those who will whine about this, well i feel you're showing your true colours, if you can't demonstrate for free speech without using racist cartoons as your justification then its a pretty poor affair if you ask me.
Muslims are Welcome? you didnt think this one thought did you. they should of been invited from the start. So now its look like this rally was and is by racist. own goal anyone or piss ups and breweries spring to mind and now the racist are gonna kick off on "them Moslims" that turn up and when people come to their aid of the Moslims, the hooligains are gonna kick in their heads. its going bad to worse and were only 2 days away from it
Sorry Peter, I really think this is a huge mistake. Self-censorship is no better than imposed censorship. There must be no compulsion to publish the cartoons and there must be no compulsion not to. Please read through your statement of principle again. If people want to show the cartoons, let them. There must be no special attempts to appease any one group of people who may or may not support this march, whatever religious or political background they come from.
I had no intention of showing the cartoons myself, but I wholeheartedly support the right of anyone else who wanted to.
I'm hugely disappointed by this. You've done exactly what the censors want. I'm really not sure I'll bother coming along now, to be honest, and I'm guessing plenty of other people who have supported this campaign feel the same. I donated money to this campaign in good faith, an right now this feels like a betrayal of that faith. Will you be reimbursing people?
I'm disappointed at this turn of events. The reactions to the cartoons are the latest, biggest example of people seeking to place restrictions on free speech. For example the calls from Muslim organisations for the UN to create an international blasphemy law. If you think the cartoons are being claimed by the racists as a rallying point, they need to be reclaimed by those of us who support free expression!
I'm still intending to come, but I'd saddened by this.
I'll still be there, but I believe this is a serious mistake.
'We don't believe in censorship but we will censor ourselves so that those who believe in censorship will be welcome to stand alongside us'
Depressingly British - and the Islamist groups and their far-left allies can merrily continue to benefit from the ignorance of the non Internet-using public who have not seen for themselves the embarrasing fact that the cartoons in question (the original 12 from the Danish newspaper, not the extra ones concocted by the Danish imams to get the desired reaction) are as mild and whimsical as they actually are.
The cartoonist who made the "bomb-in-turban" drawing has stated that it was made as a protest against terrorists using islam as an excuse for killing people, it was never intended to mock muslims in general. Why on earth cant we bring a placard of this cartoon? I fear this is turning into a march for free self-censorship.
I can't help but feel slightly disappointed by this, and also ambivalent. Freedom of expression must necessarily include the freedom to offend. Nevertheless the organisers' wish not to cause Muslims to feel excluded is a noble one.
Am I now to bring a banner that reads "Demand Freedom Of Expression! (as long as nobody takes offence with what I say, that is.)'?
@void: the cartoons are not 'racist', please stop describing them as such. They lampoon a religion. Not brilliantly, admittedly, but the criticism that they are racist is entirely hollow. If a similar cartoon was produced attacking some of Christianity's unsavoury elements you wouldn't describe it as racist, would you?
To be even handed here, am I now not allowed to bring my Piss-Christ t-shirt?
Well, then I'm not coming!
I don't accept the idea that "Muslim sensitivities" can determine what I say, write or think about Islam. This is nothing to do with disliking Muslims as people or wishing them harm, or, indeed, wanting to hurt their feelings, but I am not a Muslim and simply do not intend to accept sharia law, in part or in whole, which is what the cartoons business is about.
What action will you take against people who come along with the cartoons, then?
Peter, I urge you to reverse this decision as soon as possible. It is entirely contrary to the original stated aims of this campaign. If you have conceded this ground, you must also logically concede that the makers of JS:T0 and Behzti were in the wrong too.
If you don't want to show the cartoons yourself, that's fine, but demanding other people don't as well, lest they offend Muslims, is surely the antithesis of what this campaign was about.
Unless you reverse this decision ASAP, I hereby withdraw my support unreservedly.
What a depressing turn of events.
Happy to take their money then move the goal posts. Great scam! Those dhimmi suckers.
as i've said before, if the word racist is wrong semantically then i can not think of another word that describes an attempt to stereotype and ridicule a large community with the many diversities that islam includes
you could argue all day about what does and doesn't mean 'race' - the fact is that the end result of these cartoons is the same as the end result of racism, and the islamic community who have been offended feel in much the same way as if they had been judged for the colour of their skin
to many (not me) religion is not regarded as choice, but a central part of an individuals personal make up which cannot be changed, much like race or sexuality
to whilst it may not be technically racism, it is prejudice along the same lines as racism or homopobia and should be addressed as such
Can I have my donation back, please? I did never want to support a self-censuring event.
Another pathetic example of grovelling to Muslim 'sensibilities' .. the reason i supported, contributed and intended to participate in this march.
Count me and my family out too!
to the void:
The cartoons criticize misuse of a religion. If they take it as criticism of their religion, then they admit the religion is patently extremist.
Now have a look at this:
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004824.htm
and in particular the excuse he tries: "It was a jest. Danes jest a lot."
Good move. You've been very brave. It's not acceptable to victimise anyone, and I'm disappointed by the eagerness from some parties to do just that. They can organise their own demonstrations. I don't want any reimbursement for the money I gave to this campaign - it has always been honest in its objective to stand up for free speech as a universal principle, and it has gone back on none of its stated principles whatever.
Void.
Race is something innate, that you are born with, that you do not choose, and which has no necessary effect on what kind of person you are. Therefore, criticising someone on the basis of their race is mindless. Religion is something that you choose, which you actively endorse, and which necessarily informs many or all of your moral judgements and behaviours. Thus, criticising someone on the basis of their religion, or simply criticising a religion itself is perfectly valid. Indeed, it is necessary. A religion is a belief system and all belief systems must be open to challenge. The allying of the religion Islam with the political ideology Islamism makes this especially urgent. All political ideologies must be open to challenge. No one ideology can claim exception from this simply because it draws all of its ideas from a holy book.
Criticising a religion is in no way prejudice akin to racism and homophobia. Criticising a religion is specifcally focussed on looking at the beliefs and ideas and statiing you disagree with them. It is no different to criticising, say, the ideology of a political party. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and conflating it with mindless racism is a thoroughly disingenuous thing to do.
First, the march was about freedom of expression, now it is about avoidance of bad feelings.
No arguments with you on this one, Peter...
“Any concept of one person being superior to another can lead to racism.”
Walter Lang
Some of the crap thats coming out of people on this subject is racism. P.S the cartoon were racist just as the Der Sturmer cartoons of jews were anti jewdaic, but then steve biko was right
"Not only are whites kicking us; they are telling us how to react to being kicked"
Amazing how some people's true colours are coming out... free expression for dialogue just so that they can offend another? Racism and Islamaphobia. That's not why I participated in this.
OH FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! So much for Freedom of Expression. I sent you 45 pounds in donations. How about sending it back?
I'm serious. I gave you money because I thought you were standing up to the tyranny of Islam, you sniveling coward. Either reverse course once again and welcome those cartoons back again THAT WERE THE ORIGINAL REASON FOR THIS MARCH or refund my money.
It looks like the far-left line seems to be now that to in any way criticise or mock (or even simply to depict) the historical person of Mohammed is now 'racist'.
The further the goalposts are moved to accomodate the professionally offended, the more certain the violent outbreak of real racism on a mass scale in a few generations' time. Perhaps this is the real objective?
"I thought you were standing up to the tyranny of Islam,"
point proven
nothing to do with freedom of expression but a collective muslim and islam cross burning by Klansmen........Is cross burning a form of free speech?
You have gone against none of your stated objectives - it was never about ridiculing Islam as some people seem to believe. Keep the money and well done for taking a position of your own and expressing it without accepting intimidation. Well done.
Hey rastaman, this never was "against the tyranny of Islam"
But your statement makes me think my donation is ok despite the u-turn. After all, they are displaying the cartoons in context.
I always thought there should be other mocking cartoons as well, on all the religions, including the admirers of Miss Piggy, so the message would be clear.
I never thought this was about standing up to the tyranny of Islam, whatever that's meant to mean. I thought it was about standing up to the tyranny of anyone who seeks to repress free speech.
Now you have made the decision to not display the cartoons, I trust you will be similarly against anyone displaying anything that any religion might take offensively.
Is the French Charlie Hebdo cartoon recently censored in Wales (see link - Mohammed, Jesus etc sitting on a cloud with the caption "Stop complaining, Mohammad ... we've all been caricatured, here") still acceptable, or is that wicked and racist too?
Good move. Amazing how some people on your site are trying to intimidate you into saying you encourage people to bring in the cartoons without pointing to any argument as to why they specifically are so necessary in a rally for free expression.
You have been very very brave - and now for just taking a line yourself, you have taken the wind out of the sails of those who only wanted this as an opportunity to upset others.
All you're saying is you don't want the march to be about the BNP agenga - which won't do the campaign for free expression any good.
I thoroughly approve.
They should not be necessary and neither should they be banned.
Unless both of those conditions are satisfied, I don't see how you can claim this march to still be in favour of free expression.
Very revealing some of these comments ... I think the decision is right. No U-turn on any of the stated objectives.
I don't want this site to encourage people to bring the cartoons, or to discourage it. I thought the point was that that should be up to individuals.
Can I still bring a Danish Flag, or is Denmark a racist country?
We assert and uphold the right of freedom of expression
Well that was a load of bullshit then wasn't it.
"I never thought this was about standing up to the tyranny of Islam, whatever that's meant to mean".
Oh PLEASE! It was the burned embassies, the murders, the death threats, the violence in the streets, the screaming, the shouting, all instigated by Imams, that brought about the need for this march.
This is just an accidental, coincidental march that "happened" to be organized and has nothing to do with all that Islamic violence? All those Muslims bitching like hell about this march and trying to compromise it has no bearing?
Come on. Who do you think you're kidding. You sound like you did before Churchill took over and saved England from the Nazis. Then you finally got some balls. This is about Islamic tyranny. You're damned right it is and you know it. God... pearls before swine. What's the use?
May I ask what the Danish flag has to do with a march for free expression? is it a nationalist march you are attending? maybe a Danish Nationalist Party march? Are you a Nazi?
It has turned Orwellian - reminds me of newspeak more than of free speech. Lost in translation.
Rastaman,
I simply don't agree with you. The MFE was about far more than that.
It is small-minded comments such as yours that have led to this March having such a bad reputation and, dare I say it, the organisers feeling they need to take such a drastic step to distance themselves from your kind of nonsense. What a shame that, in doing so, they have contradicted their own aims.
"Criticising a religion is in no way prejudice akin to racism and homophobia. Criticising a religion is specifcally focussed on looking at the beliefs and ideas and statiing you disagree with them. It is no different to criticising, say, the ideology of a political party."
so as has been asked (and no-one has yet answered) would you consider the Der Sturmer cartoons of jews racist or offensive
judaism is a religion also is it not
however in many ways the cartoons are an irrelevance, it was the act of publishing them in a national newspaper which was the racist act, these cartoons are not in any way of standards high enough to have been reproduced in the national press, so the question has to be what is the motivation for publication?
just as what is the motivation for showing these cartoons on saturday?
the comments of many above me, i believe belie the true motivations of those who wished to bring along depictions of the cartoons
"May I ask what the Danish flag has to do with a march for free expression? is it a nationalist march you are attending? maybe a Danish Nationalist Party march? Are you a Nazi?"
Are you proposing burning it?
If you are coming then I am definitely not.
publican decoy, once again: Pearls before swine.
Cowardice, appeasement, self censorship.. all the same qualities of the British estabishment during the 30's that made Hitler legit.
This is a dangerous precedent.. read your history..
What a bunch of wimps... You have obviously caved in to the Islamic pressure groups and the Mayor of Londinistan.. Another victory for Sharia law and another defeat for Liberty..
I suggest another demonstration should be organised with people who have the backbone to stand up for TRUE LIBERTY!!
Say for arguments sake it is about "Islamic Tyranny" - like imagine you have an argument with your father and it results in your false imprisonment (being grounded) by the evil dictator (dad) - would it help to promote free dialogue and exchange to be wearing a t-shirt that says "Dad's an evil **** and I should be pissing on his head."
What's the most valuable thing about free expression? Yes the right to criticise and say what we want we have all day, but if we just use that to insult other people than we get off to a bad start. Let muslims explain how and why the cartoons might be offensive to them and if they are but it would help to do that in a climate which doesn't have us looking like the KuKluxKlan.
I am a practicing muslim doctor. I treat all patients equally and with care, whether they are muslim,christian,Jew,Hindu or any other faith. I use freedom of speech but appropriately without hurting anyone's feelings because i believe this is what a civilised attitude should be.
Now let me ask those who misuse "freedom of speech" saying that anything can be said,if so, does this mean a person can stand up and start saying abusive words to other person or his mother on that person's face because after all he is free to express himself?
Whatever happened to "The free exchange of ideas depends on freedom of expression and this includes the right to criticise and to mock"?
I am incredibly disappointed by this - it is nothing but dhimmitude.
The adverse reactions to the cartoons are the problem of those who cannot respond in an adult manner. Taken in the light of the "God is great" rantings of most convicted terrorists the cartoon with the bomb is an astute political comment on the source of such terrorism.
I will not be supporting a rally that seeks accomodation with those that wish to censor criticism of their superstitions.
This makes me both angry and sad. I had such hopes for you.
Amid all the cretinous remarks this thread's receiving - the worst so far being someone suggesting that to bring a Danish flag is tantamount to Nazism - I would stress that I sympathise with how difficult a decision this must have been to make, especially given the level of interest from the far right, and from those who think that the sky will fall in as a result of this decision.
It won't, but the principle remains that you can't have a march for free expression, prompted by a row over some cartoons, and then tell people they can't display those cartoons without it looking like another retreat and another bit of self-censorship.
Ok so that's no cartoons because they'll upset the Muslims, no national flags because that will upset the lefties, no Jerry Springer The Opera posters because it might offend Christians, no Cat Stevens records because they'll offend the Jews (and anyone with ears), no football shirts because that will suggest there may be hooligans, no speaking English just in case there are Welsh speakers around, no hoodies because we don't want to look like yobs, no chanting because we'll sound like a mob.......
.....so what's on the agenda for the March then. Let's all stand around and be nice to one another without saying anything.
YOU ARE A JOKE.
Maybe it would be better if the march was cancelled!
Hello we want free speech, but remember not to talk about the cartoons!!!!
I feel sorry for people that sent you money.
Dear Mr or Mrs Anonymous
My reason for bringing a Danish Flag was to show solidarity and support to those poor cartoonists who are afraid for thier lives (I'm not even Danish). Do you beleive that the death threats are justified? In answer to your question I am not a Nazi, but are you? My politics are left of centre.
The Void,
Jews are both a race AND a religion, whereas Muslims are simply the latter. The Motoons made (a very poor and crude) criticism of Islam, the religion. The anti-jewish cartoons were specifically motivated by hatred against Jews as a race, not by arguing that the religion of Judaism is problematic.
I feel that distinction is vital.
I'm very disappointed.
I'm very disappointed indeed.
I've also donated money to this cause, not to bash Muslims but to protest at the self censorship shown by our Government, papers ... and now us.
I really think that you have lost a lot of people with this shameful U-turn. Shame on your utter lack of spine.
That said.
I was very worried that the cartoons would be used to justify violence and we don't want to exclude Muslims. This would fix the issue.
Can we carry placards with the Danish Cartoons covered and place the word "censored" on the front?
What is going to be Voltaire? How do we protest against the self censorship now that we have chosen to self censor ourselves?
I await in intrepidation ...
(BTW void, you are a twat)
(BTW void, you are a twat)
Buy that man a Carlsberg.
PS I would've added self-publicising blog whore before the twat though.
Void = twat. Yes. You've hit on it exactly. Good show.
Re. Nazi anti-Jewish cartoons - the actual equivalent of the Mohammed cartoons would be caricatures of Moses, David et al. for FFS (or the god Jehovah as a personage), not Der Sturmer cartoons depicting Jews as a whole as hook-nosed conspirators who drink the blood of gentile babies. Muslim-related caricatures of the latter type have not appeared and would not appear in Westerm media.
While of course anti-Jewish cartoons of precisely the traditional anti-semitic kind are regularly printed all over the Islamic world.
I can understand why you have made this move. But I do not support it.
If people want to self-censor, this is fine (although I would question their decision), but to staunch people's freedom of expression on a March for Free Expression surely gives mixed messages.
To do it so late in the day when many people may not get to see this is also appalling. Can anyone say 'damage limitation'?!
I'm sorry, I am very unlikely to attend as I feel let down and misled.
Jew cartoons: right on. Want to see a few Arab cartoons of Jews? Looky here.
http://www.islamanazi.com/cartoon2.htm
"The anti-jewish cartoons were specifically motivated by hatred against Jews as a race, not by arguing that the religion of Judaism is problematic."
tenuous as ever, how do you define race, Jewish people are from many different backgrounds and parts of europe/asia/africa .. does there have to be some kind of genetic marker which defines race
the fact is what unifies the jews is judaism, just as what unifies muslims is islam
is anyone going to answer the question about the anti-semetic cartoons of the 30's ... would you support them being shown at this march?
The Jewish ones were more inventive:
http://boomka.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/falbum/wp/album.php?album=72057594067999377
Check this: A void is an empty vessel ... what to empty vessels make?
You bet, Voidbrain. If I were a Jew hater like you I would feel free to bring all I could and pass them around, and you can bet no one would make death threats at you for doing so.
"Muslim-related caricatures of the latter type have not appeared and would not appear in Westerm media."
the stereotypes may be different and more contemporary, but they apply just in the same way as they did back then ... the inference being islam = terrorist, as opposed to jew = baby eater (which is unlikely to work as a line of propaganda in this day and age ... gotta keep up with the times)
and if you dont think thats a stereotype that appears in the western media then i suggest you have a watch of some of the hollywood action films made over the last 10/15 years
youre rastaman youd probably get nicked though
the_void said
the comments of many above me, i believe belie the true motivations of those who wished to bring along depictions of the cartoons
I don't believe that anyone so far has stated that they would be bringing the cartoons with them.
Where are you getting this assumption from?
I for one, like many others here, was not planning to carry a copy of the cartoons (or anything relating to the Islamic faith, as it happens) but would not have condemned those who had chosen to. It goes against my core idea of Freedom of Expression.
And perhaps you should watch some Hollywood action films, Void, and notice how evil European terrorists with funny accents (often played by the token British actor) have regularly been the villains for decades for fear of offending anyone.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Void, you dispectful twat you wrote:
"the fact is what unifies the jews is judaism, just as what unifies muslims is islam"
That should be written:
"The fact is what unifies the Jews is Judaism, just as what unifies Muslims is Islam"
To not give Islam and Judaism a leading capital letter is terribly disrespectful.
"youre rastaman youd probably get nicked though"
Void you are a terrible little racist aren't you?
Cancel the march!!! Instead lets all go to the mosque and get down on our kness and submit and apologise to allah for being insensitive!
Wonder if the voltaire brothers have got death threats and now shitting there pants!
...
Peter, do not worry allah can only hurt you in this life!
Sorry but no. The relationship between Islam and Muslims is fundamentally different to the relationship between Judaism and Jews.
Anti-semitic 30s cartoons? Utterly vile. Would I ban people from displaying them on the march? With a heavy heart, no, but I would also reserve the right utterly lambast anyone who did.
Happy now? Or would you like to call me and everyone else here racist yet again. your old generalisations and reductive sloganning of "schoolboy" and "right-wing" have been strangely absent from your latest comments too. What's going on there?
I still want my donation returned and I see that I'm not alone in this. This campaign has been compromised and that was the whole point and why I sent money. You cannot compromise freedom of speech. Even if it hurts, even if it goes against your beliefs, yes, even if it offends your personal values. If you are going to organize a Freedom of Expression march, bill it as a free speech march and ask for donations for it, then you must either produce what people are paying for or cancel the march and return the money. Democracy and its Freedoms CANNOT BE COMPROMISED!
because i didnt want to get into the same level as argument as rastaman and the like, or the erson who on another thread said that i obviously had never had sex
imo the schoolboy level of debate to be found here (not by yourself) is self evident and requires no further satire
"Would I ban people from displaying them on the march? "
what about white hoods and burning crosses? where do you draw the line?
Twat:
Apparently nowhere. you're still running your obnoxious mouth, aren't you?
@void
You can surely see the difference between artefacts such as the '30s cartoons demonizing Jews, and the attire and behaviour of the Klan - as oppose to the Jyallands-Posten cartoons.
On the one hand, material specifically designed to incite hatred - and on the other a political satire noting the correlation (note: not causation, correlation) between Islam and terrorism in the world today.
To compare the two is yet more of your intellectual dishonesty - exactly on a par with your semantically inaccurate and disingenuous claims of 'racism'.
I genuinely think you should stop now. It is clear you cannot debate this issue in a clear and rational way, preferring instead to resort to lazy accusations and adolescent rhetoric.
Well, a lot of Monty Python quotes spring to mind at this delicate juncture. ("Judean People's Front?! We're the People's Front of Judea! Fuck off! Splitters!" and "This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who . . .")
But I'd suggest that perhaps we can all find a view on this - and that we really SHOULD find a view on this - that might satisfy everyone, and that also accords with the Principle of Statement.
To that end, I'd point out that Voltaire never forbade anyone to bring the cartoons. Rather he "appealed" to us not to - presumably voluntarily. Perhaps he could have phrased it less emphatically - something like "please consider how the cartoons are likely to drive away a lot of our fellow free speech supporters who happen to be Muslim, and consider giving it a miss."
But, regardless of phrasing, I'd say he's got a point. (Personally, due to my extremely dim view of religious dogma, not to mention my disinclination to be subject to rules for Muslims, plus my belief that groups who want to participate in modernity had better get used to some criticism, I'm not sure I would endorse his point.) But it's true that there is a distinction to be made between 1) having the right to any form and content of speech, totally free from A) government censorship and B) religious, or any other manner of, physical violence; and, on the other hand, 2) choosing voluntarily to be nice and not go out of your way to piss people off. These are different things.
Reasonable people can differ about whether (2) is important at something like this March, and whether we ought to care about it - especially when (1) is so direly under threat. So, I'd say, go on and differ. Have at one another! Hammer and tongs! But while you do it, please bear in mind two things:
* Voltaire never undertook to outlaw anyone's speech (1); he merely appealed to our niceness (2), not to mention self-interest in not going out of our way to piss off allies. The government certainly won't keep you from bringing the cartoons, and I don't expect Voltaire will either.
* If you do choose to bring the cartoons, or if you don't, or if you want to argue that people should bring them, or want to argue that people shouldn't . . . in no case will you be subject (hopefully!) to any threatened or real physical violence.
That is to say, in summary, that official censorship is off the menu, and violence is off the menu - and whether to bring the cartoons is down to individual conscience (knowing, for whatever it's worth to your conscience, that the organiser thinks it would be a good idea if you wouldn't).
I'd hope that such a distinction might allow us to disagree on the details, while still agreeing on the fundamental principles - and thus not to dissipate our unity and strength in fractiousness.
Humbly submitted. HTH. $00.02. YMMV.
Michael Stephen Fuchs
P.S. If there does happen to be any attempt at official, forceful censorship . . . or any move toward physical violence . . . I'll be standing against it, and I'll be pretty pissed off. And I expect everyone here will enthusiastically be standing, and pissed off, right there with me. 8^)
The organisers have made it perfectly clear that this March was neither solely about the cartoons or an attack on Islam. Those who believe it was ought to have read what Voltaire have posted on the subject.
This must have been an incredibly difficult call, and I'm glad I didn't have to make it.
The amount of interest this rally has received has surpassed what I thought possible a few weeks back and it looks certain that there will be other marches and events in the future.
For now, I can see how some might view Muslim reaction to the cartoons being displayed as similar to the Leftists who have been scared off by the Freedom Association. However, judging by some of the comments here, there was clearly a danger that many would turn up simply to parade the cartoons which would make this event look like a BNP bash. Which it isn't.
What would be the point of fuelling the perception that we were running an Islam-bashing contest if it prevented "moderate" and reformist Muslims from turning up and Rend Shakir delivering her speech only to non-Muslims?
We have to be pragmatic. Those who are concerned about Islam can surely agree that the changes they so desperately wish to see happen to the religion will only occur through the actions of Muslims. Scaring them off isn't going to help our cause or theirs. Voltaire assure me that they have had many e-mails from Muslims who:
1) Do not expect non-Muslims to obey Muslim law;
2) Do not consider that these cartoons should have been banned;
3) Will not oppose having the cartoons shown in context at a debate.
And if the movement is going to forward, how much better to have had a large rally which was fully inclusive of all than a smaller rally of non-Muslims which could label the movement Islamophobic from the start.
Voltaire and I will be doing our damnedest to organise a forum where the cartoons can be seen in context, with a broad range of panellists to debate the issue.
And if the decision by Peter to ask for some restraint to be shown offends you so much, why not turn up at the March with a banner saying "Why can't I display offensive cartoons at a Freedom of Expression March?" or a banner that says "Cartoons - CENSORED!" or some such. Not only will you be making your point, but given that camera crews and two teams from 5 Live will be there, you may be able to provoke more of a public debate on this if you can get yourself seen or interviewed.
ML1, that's all wrong. People have been asked specifically NOT to bring the cartoons. No one was asked not to bring anti-semitic, anti-black or anti-anything other. The cartoons are a symbol now of anti-Islamic fascism. Yes they are. The cartoons are a symbol now of oppression of Freedom of Speech by these same Islamic fascists. Yes they are.
By asking specifically and ONLY about those cartoons you are responding specifically and ONLY to these very same Islamic fascists. Not to the Muslim community, not to Islam, but to the Islamic fascists and no one else.
Admit it.
Rastaman, I don't think that you or others should give up the ghost on this, just because of the lack of cartoons.
This March isn't about Muslims and it’s not about cartoons.
It is irrefutable that Islam is not perfect and in dire in need of modernization or reinterpretation in the light of the 21 century (void, down boy, sleep now you ugly little troll) and we must be able to critique the political nature, if not the religious nature of Islam.
The suppression of the cartoons is the most contemporary example of our self censorship and an indication that the age of enlightenment is over. Mob rule is returning.
We are not a mob, nor will the enlightened Muslims that will be joining us.
If a public speaker talks about the cartoons and we all cheer and agreed that we should be able to print them, that is enough for me.
There will be a mob of thugs looking for a reason to fight us, if they see a Danish cartoon they will be 'justified' (in their mind at least).
Why give them the opportunity? We can still talk, and talk we will.
A great deal of like minds will be there on Saturday, I'm looking forward to meeting them. I've a few Muslim friends and they appear to consider the cartoons an insult, I'm looking forward to having a rational chat with some that don't.
I’m terrible scared that we are quickly descending into World War 3 and tyranny, for me this march is about how we can take steps away from this.
"On the one hand, material specifically designed to incite hatred - and on the other a political satire noting the correlation (note: not causation, correlation) between Islam and terrorism in the world today."
the jyllands posten published these cartoons with the direct intention of inciting religious hatred, they were not published in any other context, as has been said they ain't particularly funny, clever or worthy of publication
the paper had previously refused to show similiar cartoons mocking christianity for fear of causing offence
Void you empty little can, you are still making noise ... could you take your self indignant diatribe elsewhere? Adults are talking.
@void
I really must correct you, as you are not in receipt of the facts.
A Danish writer by the name of Kåre Bluitgen was writing a book, for children, about Mohammed. He noted that he was having trouble finding artists to illustrate it for him, and this led Flemming Rose - editor of Jyallands-Posten - to write some editorial about this seemingly unusual phenomenon.
As a companion piece to the article he invited 40-odd cartoonists to portray Mohammed in a satirical light. Most of them declined as they were fearful of reprisals.
These facts combined are sufficiently culturally interesting to justify a controversial and challenging piece of editorial in a newspaper.
At no point whatsoever has there been any indication whatsoever that the **intention** of Mr. Rose or Jyallands-Posten was to inflame religious hatred.
Once again, you are stating a 'fact' that is false and misleading. You are incapable of debating on a rational and factual level.
Therefore I ask you again: please stop now.
"Void you empty little can, you are still making noise ... could you take your self indignant diatribe elsewhere? Adults are talking."
now theres an individual who genuinely believe in freedom of expression
voltaire, im off and i salute you, i think you made the right decision, and dont be put off by those winging here, youre smoking out those on the far right and the racists and that can only be a good thing
of course they wouldn't think so...
Rastaman
"No one was asked not to bring anti-semitic, anti-black or anti-anything other."
Perhaps that might be because there haven't been hordes of people posting comments about how they're going to come with "All Jews are Evil", "Blacks go home" and that Jews and Blacks can like it or lump it?
Whether you recognise it or not, Voltaire are trying to collect and maintain as broad a coalition as possible. The more inclusive we are, the more people will listen. The danger is such inclusiveness leading to a dilution of the message. I don't think that's the case here. As I said, we're trying to put on a forum to view and discuss the cartoons properly.
The problem stems from the fact that most of our media were spineless and didn't print the cartoons thus stifling debate. The void (no, not that one) was filled by the BNP, to such an extent that in the eyes of many Muslims, a march where many people are displaying the cartoons will feel like a BNP knees-up. They might be wrong, but that's the perception and for a proper debate we need to hear the voices of every-day Muslims, not just the rantings of Al Ghurabaa et al.
I'm not sure how to take some of your remarks. Do you object to the presence of Muslims on the march? If so, I suggest you do not really appreciate freedom of expression.
Voltaire, your about face has a name. It's called appeasement. You may view this as a justified tactical move designed to attract Muslims, but in the process you've compromised the principle of free speech, i.e. the very principle at the core of your endeavour. I understand your desire to appeal to as many Muslims as possible, but you shouldn't have done it in a way that dillutes your message to the point where group cultural and religious relativism trumps a universal principle. It's a pitty you've discredited yourself and the good work you've done so far. It's a shame you've let down many people who supported you and took you very seriously. I would have liked to help with the web site you intended to set up on a permanent basis, but now I won't. After the dust settles on this March for Free Expression with Strings Attached, maybe you'll see your mistake clearly and hopefully you'll learn from it.
The Friendly Infidel said: "The suppression of the cartoons is the most contemporary example of our self censorship and an indication that the age of enlightenment is over. Mob rule is returning."
Right. This is what I'm saying... over and over. We MUST NOT suppress the display of those cartoons by anyone who wants to display them, by so much as even requesting that they not be displayed.
I urge everyone going to this march who had intended to wear or carry one of the cartoons to still do so. I would love to wear my own Muhammed Terrorist Bomber tee-shirt to it, unfortunately I live in the US.... or perhaps fortunately, since the Islamic Fascists (I call them IslamaNazis) could never get away with exerting that kind of pressure on us here.
LOL!
> Therefore I ask you again: please stop now.
There is nothing to stop.
Just a Void.
A void of intelligence*
(*Void, I'm not sure if you can read very well and the above is a play on words. So I want to be very clear - I'm insulting your lack of intellect, not suggesting that you have any - remember _Adults_are_talking_)
That is your own interpretation of JP's motives, one for which the only 'proof' is your own prejudices.
JP stated that they published the cartoons in order to see what limits free expression had. Maybe that is true and maybe it isn't, but neither you or I have no way of knowing.
What is true is that the cartoons were originally commissioned for a children's book about the life of Mohammed, designed to promote understanding and respect for Islam among non-Muslims. That is quite the opposite of "the intention to incite racial hatred", that you claim.
MSF and ML1,
I appreciate your points. Can the organisers confirm that anyone displaying the cartoons will not be ejected from the march? I don't want to display the cartoons, but I won't stand with people who prevent others from doing so.
get a load of this
the "islamic human rights commission" is calling on their people to contact the police if anyone brings a Mohammed Cartoon t-shirt or placard.