March for Free Expression

The next phase

Tuesday, March 21, 2006

Including Muslims

There have been a couple of articulate and reasonable comments, and private emails to our free speech address, from Muslims saying they do not support the MAC and the other extremists, but cannot support us either because there has been so much anti-Muslim (as opposed to pro-free expression) comment on this site.

That's very understandable.

There has been some fantastic debate here, and there have been some hateful remarks, from people both for and against this campaign. With one or two exceptions, we don't remove comments once they have been made. The exceptions have been a post that advocated violence against Muslims and what was basically the manifesto of another organisation.

So we are asking for help - help from everybody interested in the success of this campaign. The main victims of extremist Islam are, of course, Muslims. For them to then find themselves denounced because of the actions of their oppressors is insupportable.

If you are a Muslim and would like to be able to support this campaign, please tell us how we can draw you in. If you are not a Muslim, please think about how we can draw in our Muslim neighbours.

All constructive criticism and advice welcomed. For the rest, there will doubtless be further examples in the comments of this thread of the reasons why we have to undertake this campaign. The hate of the left-, right- and Islamo-fascists is disturbing to witness. But if we don't stand up to it, how will our children be free?

42 Comments:

Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

The problem is of intolerance from all sides. I'm not sure how people can claim to be in favour of free expression, and yet at the same time want to "ban Islam", as some previous commentators have called for. Similarly, how can Muslim groups claim to be moderate while at the same time seeking to repress any and all discussion that isn't completely reverential.

People need to recognise that their own ideas of what is good and bad, right and wrong, are just that - their own ideas, and that can't insist other people follow them too. You can't force people to be free, however you choose to define that word.

4:08 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Freedom of thought, of expression and of ideas are all advocated in Islam; in fact they are mandatory. In this capacity i support the march.

The one concern i hold over this rally, is that it may be used by those with ulterior motives. In the same way that some so called Muslims advocate violence against whoever in the name of Islam, some in the march may try to inflame the situation. I think the problem with such demonstrations of expression is that we may fall into the trap of publicly influencing people's opinions of others- putting words in their mouth as it were. Those who burnt buildings and gave death threats do not represent me, nor does anyone self combusting or preach hatred to the world (do they have the right to express their hate?).

It is unfortunately a case of whoever shouts loudest, or whoever has an inflammatory remark to say that will be picked up by the media and blown out of proportion (the cartoons have been around since October, why is it such a big deal months on?).

Most muslims have been outraged by the aftermath of the cartoons, which don't really represent Islam, nor the prophet.
Preventing the cartoons from being shown at this demonstration would not be a withdrawl of civil liberties, nor would it be a form of censorhip; on the contrary it would be a form of tolerance and acceptance that these images do not truly relate to an individual. At any rate, it would only serve to further inflame raised tensions; and as brothers and sisters in humanity, we have responsibilities to each other, not to offend people just because we can.

Again, i fear the repercussions of those who serve to incite, not of those who speak for freedom. This may end up in a vicious circle unless someone breaks the chain.

4:16 pm  
Anonymous Andrew said...

"Preventing the cartoons from being shown at this demonstration would not be a withdrawl of civil liberties, nor would it be a form of censorhip; on the contrary it would be a form of tolerance and acceptance that these images do not truly relate to an individual. At any rate, it would only serve to further inflame raised tensions; and as brothers and sisters in humanity, we have responsibilities to each other, not to offend people just because we can."

Preventing the cartoons being shown would exactly be a form of censorship, and thats exactly what the anti's at MAC want, to dress up sharia injunctions against insults to islam as "global civility". Do you really think MAC want to change the way they deal with other religions? Do you think they want to show great respect for Hinduism by refraining from eating beef out of courtesy and respect for that faith? Of course not, they just want to enforce Saudi style blasphemy laws here and they're using "civility" as their spin on it. I'm a Christian, there are plenty of things that are published which if I chose to get enraged by I could, but what would be the point of that, it would not do any good, it would make me look like a thin-skinned intollerant sort and wouldn't demonstrate a great deal of faith in my idea of God if I thought He couldn't take a joke.

Perhaps if as brothers in sisters in humanity we focused more on our responsibilities not to be so easilly offended about every last thing, rather than censoring our fellow man, it would be a happier carry on.

This may end up in a vicious circle unless someone breaks the chain.

Those who take offence at every last thing, from Christian Voice to MAC are the ones that need to change the record and break the chain.

Hope you come on down and stand up to be counted, lets show that just as Christian Voice does not speak for most Christians the self appointed MAC mob don't speak for British Muslims

4:49 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting how this wasn't posted until Muslims started writing to the police and the Mayor about this front for Islamophobes r us.

5:16 pm  
Anonymous Abu Shuayb said...

I would march hand in hand if I thought this was not just another Islamophobic march. What leads me to this conclusion is that the this march has been something aimed against the Muslim community and Islam.

As a community we have been attacked by the government itself through its draconian legislation, police powers against the community. A hostile media etc etc. Then it is followed up by March in support of those islamophobic cartoons.

Our British government has done more to suppress free speech than any Muslim has. The introduction of the 'anti-terror' laws aimed directly at the Muslim community, including the glorification clauses, there has been a deafening silence from the organisers.

5:28 pm  
Anonymous aeneas said...

If we are not careful this will become another rally AGAINST the cartoons and AGAINST free speach!!! The cartoons are at the very heart of our growing movement. Those who want to oppose the cartoons oppose free speech. The only way to support the cartoonists who are right now fearing for their lives because they excercised their freedom of expression is to display the cartoons that our self censoring media didn't have the courage to publish. Calls for censorship in a freedom of speech rally is an outrage!

5:29 pm  
Anonymous publicansdecoy said...

Abu shayab,

On the other hand the government has worked very hard to listen to the views of many Muslim groups, indulging them far more than the likes of, say, Christian Voice. I would say that no government before Blair's has sought to include and involve Muslim communities in the political process so urgently. I think this is a laudable aim, but unfortunately they increasingly get their ears bent by precisely the kind of intolerant and repressive groups that the MFE stands against - the kind of groups who will not permit any single sleight or criticism against Islam without screaming about islamophobia/racism/fascism.

5:36 pm  
Blogger the void said...

the might interest you

Right to public racism march shames the left this Saturday

6:59 pm  
Anonymous Phil Hellene said...

If Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or whoever wish to start burning down embassies over instances of creative expression that offend them, I'll happily protest against that to. There is, perfectly properly, widespread public anger and disgust over the embassy attacks and threats of murder in response to the cartoons, and moderate Muslims must understand and accept the validity of the peaceful expression of those feelings. As it is, such issues as the Christian fringe in Spain threatening violence over comedian Leo Bassi's show Revelation and the Sikh extremists attacking a theatre over Behzti should equally be vigorously condemned on saturday, and no doubt will be.

It is surely widely understood that any de facto or de jure censorship to avoid Islamic offense will be exploited to the hilt by these other groups to further their own similar demands.

The basic principle is that blasphemous expression (whoever's ox is being gored) should not be subject to violence, intimidation or state censorship. Any Muslim who can agree with that basic principle should be most welcome.

7:05 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon wrote "...Freedom of thought, of expression and of ideas are all advocated in Islam; in fact they are mandatory."

Which Islam is that? Please, I would love to know. Where is this nirvana being practiced - Afghanistan? Iran? Saudia Arabia? This "but Islam is a religion of peace" line that is constantly trotted out is so obviously contradicted by a multitude of real life examples that it defies increduality that anyone has the gall to come out with this tosh.

7:43 pm  
Anonymous Andrew (the Yorkshireman for avoidance of confusion) said...

Posted by johny void : the might interest you

Right to public racism march shames the left this Saturday


It's interesting in the same way mans bestial nature forces him in many cases to slow down at the scene of a car crash for voyeuristic reasons Johny.

If I get time I'll fisk it later..but really..put the crack pipe down.

You've made the MAC mob look reasoned and articulate in comparison with that little diatribe my man. :D

7:58 pm  
Anonymous Andrew the Yorkshireman said...

Actually johny my man, I won't be fisking it. Having read with great amusement your journal of your fearless exploits on Sunday I think we can just leave it at that. :D

I think the classic moment of self knowledge at the pointlessness of your good self was "There was no mood in the air for direct action of any kind and I felt I would have had little support, so I stayed at the edge of the road, pissing off cops and motorists alike for no real reason." although "Turn up they did, and I was relieved to see a smattering of familiar faces. I busied myself amongst the leaping kids surrounding them, desperate for at least a whiff of the old civil disobedience. Untying the tapes from the bollards I moved onto the other side of the road, where cars sped past me, some seemingly in a frantic rush to send me flying back into the ‘designated protest zone’." just exudes such a sense of removal from reallity that it does have a cause to put itself forward for "best quote" on that ground alone.

All in all hilarious mate, but your further input into a serious protest by normal people which will under no circumstances be regarded as an alcoholic excuse for a ruck with the police will not be required.

Good luck with the revolution comrade, sounds like you'll need it. ;)

9:56 pm  
Blogger the void said...

good job only normal people get to pick what counts as freedom of expression

10:22 pm  
Anonymous Andrew the Yorkshireman said...

Captain "pissing off cops and motorists alike for no real reason" said "good job only normal people get to pick what counts as freedom of expression"

Dude, I salute your brave sitting on the pavement spitting at traffic or whatever it was. Who's to say that isn't equally valid as making a serious point about the erosion of a hard won freedom of criticism of government, religion and any damn thing we like as free people, something we have had since the enlightenment and is now threatened on a number of levels by various forces, governmental and religous?

Hell, going and getting drunk, looking for a fight with the police and then when they would not be baited sitting on the pavement gobbing at cars is a noble cause, I guess...er.

Keep taking the tablets fella. :)

11:06 pm  
Anonymous Rastaman said...

Islamophobic, Islamaphobia, racist, racism, blah blah blah. Anonymous said, anonymous said.... and then you wonder why we no longer cower in shame and guilt when you continue to parrot those words. If you go to 1000 Islamic websites you will see all those words 1000 times and you Islamist atavists are the only ones who buy into them.

There are among you some truly enlightened and courageous Muslims. They have to be courageous to be enlightened and be Muslim, and more so to speak out for sanity as they get threatened with death by the rest of you for doing so.

This march is about Islamic extremism. Of course it is. Do you think there would even be a march without the opression the extremists have been doing their best to bring upon Great Britain? Who is it that's trying to squash freedom of speech? Jews? Mormons?

Leaving Islam, once a Muslim, is punishable by death. How incredible. You can spout all the "reasonable" arguments you like about how we should restrict our speech so as not to offend you, but I have a different idea. My idea is that you get out of Great Britain if you find yourself unable to join fully into and become a part of the society that so warmly welcomed you, and emigrate to an Islamic country where you will feel more comfortable. You could even go back where you came from. Wouldn't this be far preferable to abusing your host? Is that what Islam teaches you to do? Abuse your host?

When in Rome you do as the Romans do. Either be willing to be assimilated into society and not just integrated, as you should do and as is the right and proper thing to do if you wish to reside in a new nation with its laws and traditions, or get out. Do not expect the entire nation to conform to your beliefs. It is your responsibility to conform to its beliefs.

To those Muslims who reject the violence of Islam, who are willing to take the good of Islam and move forward with that and embrace the nation that gave you a new home, those of you who will speak up for democratic values, the values of Great Britain, the values of freedom equally for EVERYONE, Thank you! I wish there were more of you, and there will be if you lead them.

11:27 pm  
Blogger the void said...

i rest my case

11:46 pm  
Anonymous Andrew the Yorkshireman said...

Captain "Everyone had their own cause to plug, Greens and communists, Islamic groups and South American Socialists all failed to mingle on the road to indifference." said " i rest my case"

What case is that my revolutionary chum?

11:54 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rastaman are you actually a rastaman?

12:21 am  
Blogger Juan Golblado said...

This is a very complex situation, and it's bound to be very difficult to deal with.

When I see appeasers like one of the anonymous cowards here calling for preventing the display of the cartoons, I get so angry that I might say something I don't really mean.

I have never said anything bigoted about Muslims or any other group, however, and I don't think I ever will. On the other hand, I am entirely comfortable criticising Islam, even though I know some Muslims will take offence.

We are just going to have to follow this through and keep ourselves under control, also keeping others under control where that's necessary. I hope we can do that.

There are people on all sides whom we can bring into our fold -- people from the left and from the right, people who believe in a god or gods and people who don't. Just as there are all these among us already. We just have to remember that, no matter how angry we get about one or other thing, the way forward is not through hatred. It is through reason.

Calm, cool, but firm, always firm, hard even, when required, and that does not rule out being gentle at the same time.

And this doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with being excited, just that Saturday will be quite exciting enough without trying. So if the name of the game is keeping things from getting out of control, we can do that.

But if we don't start now to stand up for freedom of expression, the pressure will only build, and the longer we go without starting to express this, I'm afraid the more 'exciting' things will get.

12:37 am  
Blogger Sonic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12:46 am  
Blogger Juan Golblado said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:12 am  
Blogger Juan Golblado said...

Go on then sonic, put up or shut up.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you are simple-mindedly equating criticism of Islam with bigoted views of Muslims.

So, go on, sonic. Actually put in the time to look for something bigoted I have said.

Go on then sonic. Do it.

Or are you going to slink away again, as you always did at Harry's Place whenever anyone stood up to you?

2:21 am  
Blogger Sonic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:51 am  
Anonymous Rastaman said...

Please, Sonic. Personal attacks have no value here. Let's try to stay focused. About that quote, it was very perceptive of Juan to see that connection. Most people don't. Sex in Islam is a totally different thing than in Western society. You may have noticed that its fairly prevalent for women to wear burkas and peer out at the world thru veils. You may also have noticed that Muslim men rape young girls with impunity and it's the girls who are shamed, not the rapists. All this should suggest to you that there's a helluva lot of sexual frisson going on.

Juan never said they were perverted. He really was only making a philosophical point, and a rather astute one.

4:17 am  
Blogger Juan Golblado said...

rastaman, thanks for the defence but I don't recall saying anything that would fit with what you are defending me over. :)

Interestingly, sonic's accusation against me, that I made bigoted statements at Harry's Place, has been deleted. If it was in fact deleted by its author, sonic, then it shows that he knows he could never prove his accusation.

And I imgaine it was deleted by sonic because it wasn't actually obscene or offensive (except to me!) so I doubt it would be removed by the moderators.

4:41 am  
Anonymous Rastaman said...

He said you had made a bigoted statement declaring Muslims to be perverts, and how he read that into your statement that he quoted, I've no idea. This is why I defended you. Apparently he agreed that you did not actually say any such thing and retracted. All's well that ends well.

5:32 am  
Anonymous Rastaman said...

Has anyone checked this woman out? Dr. Wafa Sultan. Read all about it http://islamanazi.com/

5:36 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I fail to see how freedom to denigrate Islam has been denied in the UK. The cartoons are not banned, insulting Islam is not banned and you are free to write whatever comments you like on this blog.

The fact is that these cartoons are offensive to the majority of Muslims, including those who do not advocate a ban on insulting religion. If you want to hold up the cartoons, you may do so, but it means that you alienate a large number of Muslims who are also against the death threats and violence that followed the publication of the cartoons. It's your choice, but as a Muslim who believes in free expression I cannot go to a demonstration that is clearly attracting support from people who are less interested in free expression than they are bashing Islam.

I would also like to point out that Muslims are not some big united block. British Muslims cannot be compared with institutional Islam in Iran or Saudi Arabia. British Muslims have not reacted violently to the cartoons and perhaps excluding a handful of people, none have thought that violence should be a response. So don't regard the politicised way in which the cartoon row played out in Syria and Iran as representative of Muslim opinion in the UK.

6:32 am  
Blogger Sonic said...

Not the time or the place Juan, you will note I deleted both comments so lets just drop it.

7:31 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well done Sonic, not only do you have the distinct reputation for being a prat on Harry's Placesite......you're actively trying to do it here as well.

9:52 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So what if Muslims don't march. They will always find a reason to be offended. Besides they have had an anti-cartoon (anti criticism of anything Islamic) march every Saturday for the past few weeks in Trafalgar Square. I constantly see at the anti-war marches posters that are very insulting and anti-Jewish/anti-American but these marches are not officially classed as anti-Jewish or anti-American. Perhaps it is time that non-Muslims are allowed to march and vent their rising anger through marching rather than resorting to violence and if this march allows peaceful protest(the first which could in any way vaguely be construed as having criticism of some Islamic beliefs - god forbid), then so be it.

10:45 am  
Anonymous man said...

Freedom to speak your mind about a religion or "denigrate" it, is perhaps not quite banned yet. Groups like the "global Civility'" lot are campaigning for it to be banned. Rioters violently closed a play in northern England. Some Christian groups have tried to ban films and shows they didn't like.

Someone has to stand up, and say, "No, we support free expression".

1:49 pm  
Blogger Dan said...

I cannot go to a demonstration that is clearly attracting support from people who are less interested in free expression than they are bashing Islam.

On a blog like this, you're always going to get one or two loud-mouth commenters trying to use the March for their own ends. Ignore them. As we've stated repeatedly, if anyone turns up with racist banners or placards inciting violence, they will not be welcome and the police have assured us that they will happily remove them at our request.

Don't you see that by standing up for freedom of speech and expression, even with someone who is carrying a Danish cartoon, sends a powerful message to the public at large? The Al Ghurabaa rent-a-mob did British Muslims a grave disservice. By coming on the March, the message that the public will get is:

"Yes I'm a Muslim. No, I don't like those cartoons - they're offensive. But look - I'm not threatening to behead anyone, am I? And I stand by your right to carry those cartoons if you wish."

Although you are right to draw a distinction between British Islam and that of Saudi Arabia, you should consider why Boris Johnson of the Spectator decided to remove the cartoons from their website. If the police couldn't protect him from "a handful of people" (as you put it), we should be demonstrating about that as well! A clear case of threats of violence limiting freedom to publish.

Please remember that the aim of the march is to agree on a framework in which people can speak, express or publish their ideas and thus noone is expected to endorse the views of anyone else present.

If you truly believe in freedom of speech but you're worried about "a handful of people" showing the cartoons, why not come along to the march with a placard expressing your disgust at the cartoons but defending the right of others to publish them?

1:57 pm  
Blogger Juan Golblado said...

Why are so many people posting as 'anonymous'? I find that an impediment to a good discussion. I vaguely remember a year or more ago creating a profile for this system, and ever since it follows me around, filling in the details of my ID. And the system offers a way to use other IDs if you for some reason you want to post under a different name from time to time.

It's not a difficult thing to do, and it would make the discussions here more interesting.

I would like to address the 'anonymous' poster who says he is a Muslim and would like to come on Saturday but won't come because he is angered by anti-Islamic sentiments.

I can't promise him no sentiments against Islam, not even from me, because although intellectually I recognise the problem is an Islamic chauvinism or Islamic supremacism, I am aware of how deeply rooted this sentiment is in Islam itself, along with many other sentiments which are entirely positive. And it is easy for me to get fed up with the easy cover that Islam provides for Islamic chauvinism (and the sense of popular support that Islamic chauvinism provides for Islamist terrorists) that I just feel like saying, "to hell with Islam".

But as he asks us to curb such sentiments and do something to win over people like him, I will ask him to work against Islamic chauvinism and come out and make an effort to show people like me Muslims committed to freedom of expression.

Whether he does that or not, I can assure him that I will do my best to be clear about where my anger should be directed.Actually, now that I think about it, I can promise him that I will be clear about where my anger should be directed. I commit myself to express no anti-Islamic sentiments on Saturday.

(I just saw ML1's suggestion to people who support free speech but are offended by the cartoons that they carry a poster condemning the cartoons and affirming the right to publish them. What an excellent idea! That is after all the essence of free speech. )

2:14 pm  
Anonymous Nick Pullar said...

ml1,

"If you truly believe in freedom of speech but you're worried about "a handful of people" showing the cartoons, why not come along to the march with a placard expressing your disgust at the cartoons but defending the right of others to publish them?"

As the Head Steward, I fully endorse this idea!

If you are a Muslim who disagrees with the extremists and with the cartoons please come along with a banner saying just that and show the whole world what you think!

You have my personal invitation and you will be made to feel right at home!

It feels kind of weird to (actually have to) say this, but I don't care about your politics, your religion, your colour, your sex, your sexual orientation or anything else. I just care about whether or not you support the idea that people should be free to engage in discourse without being threatened with violence. Please come out on Saturday and support that idea!

3:01 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Much as I would like to support the notion of freedom of expression the defence of the reputation of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) must take precedence over all other considerations. If those who disrespect the Messenger are attending this rally then my place is with fellow Muslims opposing this rally which has been unfortunately infiltrated with Islamophobes and racists.

6:45 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said, you haven't done very much to bring in Muslims by constantly attacking their religion, alienating 500 organisations who support MAC and by encouraging people to attack Islam on the day with assorted t-shirts, placards etc.
Now when the police and the mayor are alerted to your nefarious activities you start getting a conscience about reaching out to Muslims. Typical politicians

8:52 pm  
Anonymous Andrew the Yorkshireman said...

Anonymous and anonymous (last two posters)


You don't sound like the kind of people who agree with the statement of principle, so probably best you don't come.

Enjoy one of your 29 "behead, er can we say that?, er no...boycott?..yup, ok boycott those who insult islam" counterprotests.

I loved your nice big "BE CAREFULL WITH MOHAMMED, Learn from Salman Rushdie" banner over the last demo..peaceful in a sinister threatening sense...

11:04 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey when in Rome.

See the short change you get when living in Islamic Countries, being a Christian, you respect their laws, hide yer crosses or yer bloody well out buster, do not pass go etc.

Muslims in General are a great bunch, it's the other freakin lunatics who like to strap themselves with explosives, or the blind cleric, claiming social for his herd of kids who give muslims a bad name.

For Christ sake, lets educate muslims to lighten up and get a grip, thought Islam meant peace anyway??? doesn't seem a very peaceful religion to me.

Dunno about wearing t-shirts, and don't agree with the hype re the cartoons, they new exactly the effect they would have and are net helping to bridge the gap with muslims.

2:58 am  
Blogger TheFriendlyInfidel said...

Anyone that believes that free speech should protect the right to celebrate the acts of
Terrorists, but not criticize religion is irrational.

Personally I believe that both should be allowed. We need to engage with those that support terrorism, banning their opinions means we cannot challenge them in the public arena.

This March isn't about Muslims, although they seem to be intent to place themselves at the centre of this issue by demanding the application of parts of Shiri'a Law in Western countries to limit ‘insults’ to their religion.

This March is about is the raise of political correctness, the implementation of the thought police, the use of electronic surveillance, the death of rational debate, the totalitarian laws put in place my our government, the spread of celebrated ignorance, the rewriting of history to become more palatable, the right to demonstrate peacefully etc etc

This March is *not* about Muslims, it is about our freedoms. Including the freedom to insult and piss people off without the expectation of violence and death. You don’t need to look in just poor Muslim countries to see this injustice, you can see it in China, Africa, Asia etc. Governments as tyranny.

This is what it is about, the erosion of the values that has made our society strong and keeps our leaders under control. If I think Blair is a B-Liar and state as such I don’t expect to be locked up, I expect our police, law and courts to protect him from him not incarcerate me.

This is what this March is all about:

http://tinyurl.com/h8a8p

11:18 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't want to 'draw in' my Muslim neighbours; I want them gone.

1:32 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

[QUOTE]Hey when in Rome.

See the short change you get when living in Islamic Countries, being a Christian, you respect their laws, hide yer crosses or yer bloody well out buster, do not pass go etc.[/QUOTE]

When did you last visit United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Eygpt, Kuwait, Qatar.. etc. I cant remember seeing anyone dressing as the locals there, neither hiding their crosses.

When in rome do as the romans is an old saying, probably dating back to the romans, but the end of the saying is missing. It should read, When in Rome do as the romans, but when the roman is elsewhere he can do as he bloody likes!

Now I have replied that point, i would like to ask, when you speak of freedom of speech, is that theoretical or exactly, 'freedom of speech'. I gather that you are not demonstrating for the terrorist to rant about his quimms, neither the pheadophile so he can publish his fantisies. Is it just your ideals about freedom that you are demonstrating for, and where are your borders.... If you have any.

7:28 pm  

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